They Don’t Pay Their Fair Share

[VOLS INC.]

I hear echos of the Westminster Catechism in your reply. A beautiful summation of faith!

No, I do not believe that any religion actively claims as much diversity of membership as the large umbrella of Christianity.

But even (especially?) in the US, we have more flavors of Christianity than Baskin Robbins has of ice cream. And often the divisions are over interpretations of a small handful of verses. Or, in at least one case, Deacons bickering over the color of the new carpet. And we're all so sure we're right that we tend to gather those who agree with our minutia and push away those who don't.

Well I certainly do not disagree in that the Church (As a whole) has its issues. That’s very true. We certainly do a poor job of reflecting our Leader.

I guess I’ve been blessed to attend good Churches from a diversity perspective. Though we don’t track participation by race, gender, etc. Our church seems to reflect our community fairly well.

 

[hndog609]

Churches aren't supposed to segregate, but so many have appropriated the majority attendee cultural influence into their makeups that outliers don't fit in and generally aren't made to feel welcome.

I can't argue that some degree of "this is our group" doesn't occur. For that matter you could probably skip the race issue entirely and say social status is in play too. (I'm certain there are churches where the cheapest car in the parking lot would cost more than the most expensive one in another) I guess my point was that as opposed to churches there are places that seem to have embraced the idea of genuine, in your face racial segregation being completely legit.

 

[Vol8188]

You made this point yesterday in relation to wealth. Can we re-visit?

I was interested in what you were saying. As I understood it - that we, as a society, have re-set wealth in a cycle, with multiple iterations?

It’s straight out of Marx’s mouth. The idea that we are slowly moving towards a perfect communist utopia

 

[luthervol]

True

But in that same time period, the fatherless home rate has skyrocketed, many now believe gender is fluid, obesity rates leading to heart disease is now an epidemic (better than starving for sure, but not by much given the suffering that accompanies obesity), and personally I would not call the practice of ending a babies life for mere convenience “progress” (At the risk of starting an abortion debate)

I do not disagree with your overall point. However, we have made progress in some areas, and went backwards in others.

As far as “human rights” being the smoking gun. Yeah, maybe in America and some other countries. However, I don’t believe the gay people still getting thrown off rooftops in the Middle East, or the Muslim slaves in China would strongly agree with you.

Add. We are also now choosing segregation. See “cultural centers” or “safe spaces” on many college campuses.

We obviously have a long way to go. Some places more than others.
I would venture to say that even China and the Middle East are more socially evolved than they were 1000, 500, or even 100 years ago. They are also both among the places that are fighting the hardest to stymie the inevitable social evolution.

Choosing to be segregated and being forced into segregation are two entirely different things and another step along the path.

 

[sjt18]

Churches aren't supposed to segregate, but so many have appropriated the majority attendee cultural influence into their makeups that outliers don't fit in and generally aren't made to feel welcome.

What "cultural influence" specifically are you talking about? In what way does that make a BELIEVER feel unwelcome in a congregation of other believers?

As for the divisions along interpretations... a few verse can make all the difference in someone's beliefs. The NT proposition is congregations of people united by belief in "The Gospel" truth. Neither Paul nor John nor Peter were very tolerant of deviations from the truths they taught. John and Paul particularly addressed things happening then... that are common in the American church today.

 

[sjt18]

We obviously have a long way to go. Some places more than others.
I would venture to say that even China and the Middle East are more socially evolved than they were 1000, 500, or even 100 years ago. They are also both among the places that are fighting the hardest to stymie the inevitable social evolution.

Choosing to be segregated and being forced into segregation are two entirely different things and another step along the path.

You have a faith... you may not call it a religion but it has all the markers of a religion.

 

[luthervol]

I’m certainly not fond of it but again the goal of a Church is to worship God.
And “Especially in Christendom”?
Do you believe that Mosque and Synagogues are more racially diverse than Churches?

What do you mean especially??

People choose to worship God in a segregated environment. That's okay with me even though I choose not to participate.

 

[sjt18]

Agreed. The concept of who is worthy of representation has changed. The requirements for representation have changed as well. The principle of representation has not (for me).

The senate is an interesting reminder to me. States are to be represented in our government. In fact, our government should be in a 3 way dance between the country, the states, and the individual. Since a singular state as a stand alone entity cannot vote but is in the dance, their representation was appointed (or was intended to be). Now that senators are voted on by the members of their state, the individual is somewhat over represented and the state is under represented.

The idea that a state is represented fits nicely with Hog's idea of each state levies the own taxes and pays to the federal what is due.

If we simply returned to the restraints on the Federal government in the Constitution... we wouldn't need any of that. Washington could handle the limited duties granted to it then 50 separate experiments in self-governance could improve them all.

 

[sjt18]

People choose to worship God in a segregated environment. That's okay with me even though I choose not to participate.

I have made a conscious choice my whole life to attend churches where anyone was welcome... and have left what I thought to be a "good" church because they did not welcome black people specifically.

 

[luthervol]

You made this point yesterday in relation to wealth. Can we re-visit?

I was interested in what you were saying. As I understood it - that we, as a society, have re-set wealth in a cycle, with multiple iterations?

No. My post was in response to someone saying that when wealth disparity gets to a certain point, the poor overthrow the wealthy; and then another poster saying that the wealthy would just become wealthy again and it would start all over in the same cycle.

 

[luthervol]

You have a faith... you may not call it a religion but it has all the markers of a religion.

Absolutely. I have an unshakable faith in my core beliefs.

 

[hog88]

IIRC, many former Confederates were denied voting rights after the war. For instance, Lee's application to have his rights restored was not approved until 1975.

Yep, just another travesty of in a long line of them.

 

[utvolpj]

We obviously have a long way to go. Some places more than others.
I would venture to say that even China and the Middle East are more socially evolved than they were 1000, 500, or even 100 years ago. They are also both among the places that are fighting the hardest to stymie the inevitable social evolution.

Choosing to be segregated and being forced into segregation are two entirely different things and another step along the path.

Check Iran prior to the revolution

 

[luthervol]

I have made a conscious choice my whole life to attend churches where anyone was welcome... and have left what I thought to be a "good" church because they did not welcome black people specifically.

I admire that greatly!!

 

[hog88]

I would happily support an act that reversed horrific/racist laws within our country:

1. Reinstate voting rights for felons who’ve served their sentence

2. Eliminate the minimum wage

3. Repeal marijuana laws

4. Repeal gun laws

I would vote for those measures.

 

[luthervol]

Check Iran prior to the revolution

There has been and always will be brief moments of time where movement is in the wrong direction. The US is currently trying to pull out of one.

I've always viewed it as two groups of people in a big row boat frantically rowing in opposite directions. The advantage shifts from one group to the other over time, but the row boat is in a river and the current is going to win.

 

[VOLS INC.]

There has been and always will be brief moments of time where movement is in the wrong direction. The US is currently trying to pull out of one.

I've always viewed it as two groups of people in a big row boat frantically rowing in opposite directions. The advantage shifts from one group to the other over time, but the row boat is in a river and the current is going to win.

Luther, brother, we just keep agreeing.

America is definitely heading in the wrong direction under Biden and the current version of the Democrat party. We are trying our hardest to pull out of this moment in time.

I certainly hope you help by ousting these lunatics come mid-terms and beyond.

 

[LouderVol]

I would argue, from practice and experience, that churches are "cultural centers" or "safe spaces," yet we don't make the fuss about that. Once or twice a week, a large number of Americans segregate themselves into physical gatherings that have different and deep rooted traditions and beliefs. These physical gatherings are also among the most racially divided times of the week in the country. And we celebrate it.

Why do we not offer the same leeway to those who want to have the same opportunity, just not based on religion?

I wouldnt call it segregated at all. My office and your university in general are far more segregated.

I have yet to see my church kick someone out, even with some interruptions, or clear examples of them not being Catholic. I cant think of any organized religious event where you are checked at the door. Actually st Peter's did that so that mass was distanced from the tourists. You were allowed in the building but not the roped off area unless you were going to mass. But that was more a system of that space being reserved for a specific event rather than segregation.

Our priest even talks about his greatest failure being the time he kicked someone out of mass.

 

[Vol8188]

There has been and always will be brief moments of time where movement is in the wrong direction. The US is currently trying to pull out of one.

I've always viewed it as two groups of people in a big row boat frantically rowing in opposite directions. The advantage shifts from one group to the other over time, but the row boat is in a river and the current is going to win.

That sounds nice and all. And thanks to western culture’s dominance that has mainly been true. But why do you believe that has to be true?

Why do you believe in the long run things will always improve? I see nothing that guarantees that

 

[luthervol]

Luther, brother, we just keep agreeing.

America is definitely heading in the wrong direction under Biden and the current version of the Democrat party. We are trying our hardest to pull out of this moment in time.

I certainly hope you help by ousting these lunatics come mid-terms and beyond.

lol.....I don't mind rowing in opposite directions; it's good exercise.
I'm just glad the current is starting to pick back up.

 

[sjt18]

I admire that greatly!!

It wasn't a difficult choice. I had my daughter with me who was about 2 at the time. There was no way I intended to subject her to such grossly unbiblical teaching.

The Bible teaches we are one race. The only ethnic distinction God ever made was to set Israel as aside as a special people that would eventually produce the Messiah. Divisions of people over the amount of melanin they are genetically predisposed to have is a grotesque sin.

 

[C-south]

We obviously have a long way to go. Some places more than others.
I would venture to say that even China and the Middle East are more socially evolved than they were 1000, 500, or even 100 years ago. They are also both among the places that are fighting the hardest to stymie the inevitable social evolution.

Choosing to be segregated and being forced into segregation are two entirely different things and another step along the path.

Forced integration definitely doesn’t work.

 

[luthervol]

That sounds nice and all. And thanks to western culture’s dominance that has mainly been true. But why do you believe that has to be true?

Why do you believe in the long run things will always improve? I see nothing that guarantees that

Mainly because I reject the alternative.
I choose to believe that man innately has more good than bad and that ultimately good is a stronger motivator than evil.

 

[LouderVol]

Luther, brother, we just keep agreeing.

America is definitely heading in the wrong direction under Biden and the current version of the Democrat party. We are trying our hardest to pull out of this moment in time.

I certainly hope you help by ousting these lunatics come mid-terms and beyond.

We arent. The republicans want you to believe they are trying to correct things, but they arent. Just like Biden isnt actually doing anything to fix Trumps issues. No one is perfect, but they have everyone fighting to the death over which color hearse they want their coffin in, red or blue.

In Luther's anology the two rowers just get up and change position with each other every 4 years. Spending bad, no spending good. Vaccine bad, no vaccine good. EOS bad, no EOs good. So on and so forth

The only way to actually fix the issue would be to dump our uniparty system.

 

[hog88]

Mainly because I reject the alternative.
I choose to believe that man innately has more good than bad and that ultimately good is a stronger motivator than evil.

Man is inherently good, people are evil.