They Don’t Pay Their Fair Share

[sjt18]

Absolutely. I have an unshakable faith in my core beliefs.

Frankly... I respect that more than a lot of Christians I know who are pretty much illiterate when it comes to the Bible and would be hopeless if required to explain why they believe what they believe.

I am not sure that I have ever "doubted" my belief in God and the fundamentals of faith in Christ. But I have taken a critical approach and challenged what I believed. Many things I was taught... changed to align with the Bible more. One of the things intellectually that comforts me about my faith is that it is internally consistent. You can claim the possibility that Christianity is false... that it simply isn't an accurate reflection of reality. However for something to be "true" it must first be consistent with itself. Christianity is.

 

[sjt18]

That sounds nice and all. And thanks to western culture’s dominance that has mainly been true. But why do you believe that has to be true?

I believe you could rightly argue that Western Culture being governed by and an expression of Judeo-Christian ethics has led to a slowing of the cycle.

Why do you believe in the long run things will always improve? I see nothing that guarantees that

That's a very good question. Throughout world history we've seen that process run its course then leave formerly great civilizations primitive once again. We visit Egyptian monuments to an incredible society that fell and never revived. Ruins of great Asian cultures can be found. Central America has structures that testify to once great societies.

They all fell because of human sin and depravity. Man's worship at the altar of man... only has one ending.

 

[Vol8188]

Mainly because I reject the alternative.
I choose to believe that man innately has more good than bad and that ultimately good is a stronger motivator than evil.

I see the appeal for sure.

 

[Vol8188]

I believe you could rightly argue that Western Culture being governed by and an expression of Judeo-Christian ethics has led to a slowing of the cycle.


That's a very good question. Throughout world history we've seen that process run its course then leave formerly great civilizations primitive once again. We visit Egyptian monuments to an incredible society that fell and never revived. Ruins of great Asian cultures can be found. Central America has structures that testify to once great societies.

They all fell because of human sin and depravity. Man's worship at the altar of man... only has one ending.

You’re saying progress has been hindered by western culture or am I misunderstanding?

 

[luthervol]

It wasn't a difficult choice. I had my daughter with me who was about 2 at the time. There was no way I intended to subject her to such grossly unbiblical teaching.

The Bible teaches we are one race. The only ethnic distinction God ever made was to set Israel as aside as a special people that would eventually produce the Messiah. Divisions of people over the amount of melanin they are genetically predisposed to have is a grotesque sin.

One of the proudest memories I have of my dad is from around 1970. We went to a very conservative and relatively small church (COC). One Sunday a black family shows up and they had a son about my age. After the service was over my dad told me to go over and introduce myself to the boy that was my age. I could see the appreciation in the faces of his parents. They didn't go to church there long but I became friends with the boy when we ended up at the same school once bussing started in Nashville.

 

[luthervol]

Forced integration definitely doesn’t work.

I think it did work.

 

[Vol8188]

I think it did work.

By destroying black businesses and putting black teachers out of work?

 

[sjt18]

You’re saying progress has been hindered by western culture or am I misunderstanding?

No. I think decay in a way has been slowed by Western Culture and specifically the Christian influence within it.

Europe's tether to Christianity waned a while back. We are now entering or in a "post Christian" America. Some folks celebrate but even some atheists recognize the incredible danger of a society without moral anchors.

As much as I hate to say it, I am not optimistic about the country my grandkids may eventually inherit. Christians are beginning to suffer "legal" suppression and sporadic oppression. I will not be surprised if 30 years from now it is illegal to preach biblical sexual morality and that churches will be shut down by force for doing so. Luther sees that as progress... I think we've seen such things throughout history. They do not represent progress.

 

[VOLS INC.]

One of the proudest memories I have of my dad is from around 1970. We went to a very conservative and relatively small church (COC). One Sunday a black family shows up and they had a son about my age. After the service was over my dad told me to go over and introduce myself to the boy that was my age. I could see the appreciation in the faces of his parents. They didn't go to church there long but I became friends with the boy when we ended up at the same school once bussing started in Nashville.

Sounds like you were blessed with a good Dad.

 

[sjt18]

One of the proudest memories I have of my dad is from around 1970. We went to a very conservative and relatively small church (COC). One Sunday a black family shows up and they had a son about my age. After the service was over my dad told me to go over and introduce myself to the boy that was my age. I could see the appreciation in the faces of his parents. They didn't go to church there long but I became friends with the boy when we ended up at the same school once bussing started in Nashville.

I suspect I'm older than you but I'm not sure by how much. The church I grew up in during the 70's didn't have regular black attendees but several members were Cherokee. We did have a black missionary who treated us as his "home church" when he visited the area.

My dad grew up in the "old south" and struggled to leave some of those attitudes behind though he loved people no matter who they were. And he taught me to pursue "truth". He made some very difficult changes of mind over his life. I once challenged him to show me a prohibition on "interracial marriage" in the Bible. When he couldn't do it... he never repeated or affirmed that idea again that I know of.

Some cultural demons are hard to kill even with Christians and clear biblical principle. But if I were going to point to "progress"... it wouldn't be "big" scale things but the death of racist attitudes among the people I know personally. Unfortunately, the left is trying to resurrect racism.

 

[sjt18]

I think it did work.

On the whole, I believe it failed and actually slowed the progression of black people in America. There are exceptions. But I don't think you can look at black people as an isolated demographic today and compare them well to the condition of black people lamented by Moynihan in 1960. Illegitimacy has more than doubled. Crime is worse. Education relative to the whole population is worse. Moynihan and his generation rightly diagnosed the "problems" then administered poison instead of medicine. Namely social welfare programs and things like affirmative action. Black people ARE equal... they only needed protection of their rights... not crutches to cripple them. Had they simply been guaranteed their rights and freedoms with the responsibility that comes with them... I believe we would have essential equality today. We could have achieved MLK's dream of a color blind society.

However a split has been created among black people in America. Some have succeeded to a great level. Some of the "helps up" contributed. On the other side, we have a segment of the black population that is collapsing culturally and economically. The family unit has completely broken down. The intended helps made them dependent and "victims" easily manipulated by certain politicians. Crime and poverty and drugs and hopelessness are the only "reality" they actually know in a real way.

PS- I don't know what your overall experience with bussing was but "white flight" due to bussing crippled Atlanta for 50 years. My cousin never hated black people. But when forced bussing took his son from a safe school five minutes away to a school an hour ride away that was not safe nor did it do a good job of educating kids... he moved to an area beyond forced bussing. The school his kid was in had black kids. The class they put him in had two other white kids. It wasn't hate of black people that made him move. It was love of his own kid.

 

[85SugarVol]

No. My post was in response to someone saying that when wealth disparity gets to a certain point, the poor overthrow the wealthy; and then another poster saying that the wealthy would just become wealthy again and it would start all over in the same cycle.

This was the interaction with Hog -

And then the few start re-accumulating the majority of the wealth.

It's a cycle which you hope society gets a little wiser in navigating with each iteration.

I thought you were implying that we had gone thru a cycle of zeroing out wealth and “re-accumulation”, with multiple iterations.

 

[LouderVol]

I believe you could rightly argue that Western Culture being governed by and an expression of Judeo-Christian ethics has led to a slowing of the cycle.


That's a very good question. Throughout world history we've seen that process run its course then leave formerly great civilizations primitive once again. We visit Egyptian monuments to an incredible society that fell and never revived. Ruins of great Asian cultures can be found. Central America has structures that testify to once great societies.

They all fell because of human sin and depravity. Man's worship at the altar of man... only has one ending.

That's a really freaking Nostrodamaus prediction there.

Everything we consider bad is a sin, so it's not really causation to say sinning lead to the downfall of these empires. Especially since the default condition of man is sin.

It also goes in the face of some biblical stories too.

If there are but 100 my Lord?
10?
1?

 

[sjt18]

That's a really freaking Nostrodamaus prediction there.

Nope. How well do you know the Bible?

2 Timothy 3 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. 9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men. ....12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

Everything we consider bad is a sin,

Is that really how you think sin is determined? For a Christian... sin is what God says sin is.

so it's not really causation to say sinning lead to the downfall of these empires. Especially since the default condition of man is sin.

It is a matter of prevalence and acceptance. Sin is common among even the most noble and "righteous" people. But would you equate Abraham Lincoln and Hitler simply because both are sinners?

We recognize as does the Bible that a person's character is defined not by the exceptions to his behavior but by his consistent behavior. If a friend told you a lie then confessed it and asked your forgiveness... you wouldn't consider him a "liar". If you found that a friend has lied to you consistently then you would no longer consider him a friend and would call him a liar.

Societies are no different. There are "good", wholesome societies. There are evil and decadent societies. Unfortunately history shows us that the good cycle to bad and remain there until there is some type of "spiritual" renewal of high moral ideals.

It also goes in the face of some biblical stories too.

If there are but 100 my Lord?
10?
1?

I'm not aware of a biblical history of Sodom and Gomorrah prior to Abrams interaction with them. By that point, they were already a very wicked society and had made "progress" to a point where the angels that visited Lot in the form of men were lusted after by men outside the door. They were strangers to the city... so those men tried to "initiate" them into the ways of Sodom.

God knew where His "negotiation" with Abram was going. Not for the sake of a few righteous in the city but for the sake of Abram He was willing to turn His wrath aside. In the end no justification could be found for not destroying those cities.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Do you find it troublesome that Sunday mornings are the most racially segregated time of the week, especially in Christendom?

Interesting question. What do you think is the cause of that?

 

[Vol8188]

Do you find it troublesome that Sunday mornings are the most racially segregated time of the week, especially in Christendom?

You oppose voluntarily segregation? I’ve never been to a church that would turn away a family of any ethnicity. But if they prefer to worship together, why is that bad?

 

[AshG]

Interesting question. What do you think is the cause of that?

We have more denominations and sub denominations of Christianity than Fauci has verified instances of exaggeration and doublespeak. People want to worship with others who act like them and think like them.

 

[AshG]

You oppose voluntarily segregation? I’ve never been to a church that would turn away a family of any ethnicity. But if they prefer to worship together, why is that bad?

Then you get my point.

 

[Vol8188]

We have more denominations and sub denominations of Christianity than Fauci has verified instances of exaggeration and doublespeak. People want to worship with others who act like them and think like them.

Why’s that bad

 

[Vol8188]

Then you get my point.

Not even slightly.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Again, valid points. I was addressing the concept that all people should pay the same amount of tax (budget divided by people) because they share equally in the benefits afforded by birth in America.

Look at Myth #5 and #6

 

[luthervol]

Look at Myth #5 and #6

It raises a few questions.
Myth 5 - if revenue stays the same when the wealthy have higher rates (and the rest have lower rates), then that seems like a good argument for higher rates on the top 1%.
Myth 6 - I see a lot of holes in his data. He gave no info on the fifth quintile (80-99%) which is odd.
- I do not believe that the third quintile (40-59%) has a net rate of negative 15%. He threw things in there like social security but gave no breakdown.
- I do not believe that the fourth quintile (60-79%) averages paying a net of 3%. I spent a lot of time in that quintile and paid a far higher net percentage than that.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

We have more denominations and sub denominations of Christianity than Fauci has verified instances of exaggeration and doublespeak. People want to worship with others who act like them and think like them.

Is that a bad thing?

I see that others have already asked the question so I won't make you repeat yourself if you have answered. But... I have asked this question before and I have never seen a good response and it is along the same line: What about diversity makes us 'better'? And does forcing it accomplish that same goal?

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

It raises a few questions.
Myth 5 - if revenue stays the same when the wealthy have higher rates (and the rest have lower rates), then that seems like a good argument for higher rates on the top 1%.
Myth 6 - I see a lot of holes in his data. He gave no info on the fifth quintile (80-99%) which is odd.
- I do not believe that the third quintile (40-59%) has a net rate of negative 15%. He threw things in there like social security but gave no breakdown.
- I do not believe that the fourth quintile (60-79%) averages paying a net of 3%. I spent a lot of time in that quintile and paid a far higher net percentage than that.

LOL

 

[Vol8188]

A little overly simplistic but the point is made, and there is some legitimacy to it.
Another overly simplistic scenario.....18 year old Thurston Howell IV gets his tax bill delivered to his frat house at Harvard and 18 year old Elmer gets his out of the mail slot in the dilapidated mobile home he shares with his crack head mom and 3 younger siblings he is trying to provide for by working at Taco Bell and with a second job as a bag boy at the Piggly Wiggly. The concept that they benefitted equally will probably be humorous to one and infuriatingly asinine to the other.

Agreed. The federal government should not involve itself in student loans.