They hate us for our freedoms

#28
#28
MG1968 said:
about the last time the United States committed an act of violence in Iran
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Are you talking about the armed incursion of '79 (justifiable) or the military help we gave in '53 to help the Shah? Maybe there is another time more recent than I recall off the top of my head. Was supporting Hussein in his war against Iran an act that could be construed as violence towards Iran?
 
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#29
#29
RespectTradition said:
Are you talking about the armed incursion of '79 (justifiable) or the military help we gave in '53 to help the Shah? Maybe there is another time more recent than I recall off the top of my head. Was supporting Hussein in his war against Iran an act that could be construed as violence towards Iran?
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that incursion failed

what "military help" do you speak of during Operation Ajax?

since when is choosing a side in an armed conflict a bad thing?
 
#30
#30
MG1968 said:
that incursion failed

what "military help" do you speak of during Operation Ajax?

since when is choosing a side in an armed conflict a bad thing?
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I know it failed. Success or failure is not a prerequisite to count as an armed incursion.

My understanding is that we provided some training, some planning help, supplies/weapons and there are rumors of more.

Choosing sides in an armed conflict is always wrong unless one of the sides is attacking us. I will give you an example, do you think it is acceptable or appropriate that Iran has helped insurgents in Iraq?
 
#31
#31
RespectTradition said:
Choosing sides in an armed conflict is always wrong unless one of the sides is attacking us. I will give you an example, do you think it is acceptable or appropriate that Iran has helped insurgents in Iraq?
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what I see here is Iranian-developed IED's are being used to kill US servicemen, so no, I don't find it acceptable or appropriate.

I would hope that you don't either. I know the rationalization of the Paulbots is that "well, if we never went there, Iran wouldn't be killing our boys" and on the surface, that's correct. However, you are fond of declaring absolute neutrality and staying out of other countries' conflicts. Why do you seek to justify Iran's actions against the US?
 
#32
#32
I don't seek to justify their actions. I seek to prove that many of our actions are unjustified.

If you can condemn then for their actions, then you must agree, if you are logical, that giving weapons to Iraq, including WMDs, to help them fight Iran was also wrong. Wouldn't you think that would give Iran reason to dislike us?
 
#33
#33
sure, they hate us so much those students in 2009 were begging for our help, if nothing else than for the Obama administration to take their side

or are you against lending moral support as well?
 
#34
#34
I don't confuse the people with the government. Either one, both, or neither can hate us. Or at least view us as an enemy. The Iranian government obviously does, even if all the people do not. I don't view the Afghan people as my enemy, but my government does.

I have no qualms lending moral support. As long as it ends there.
 
#35
#35
when did the US government declare that the Afghan people were the enemy?
 
#38
#38
Longer version.

They had a government that we disagreed with. We toppled that government. We replaced it. There were people there who took exception to this, just as we would if someone did it to us. Those people resisted our efforts, just as a lot of us would. We have stuck around and are continuing long after our given reasons for invading are gone. We destroy poppy fields. We want to force them to adopt our standards (see treatment of women and women's rights if you want examples).
 
#39
#39
I don't know about you, but I love it when acid is thrown into the faces of young girls for the crime of trying to learn how to read.
 
#40
#40
MG1968 said:
I don't know about you, but I love it when acid is thrown into the faces of young girls for the crime of trying to learn how to read.
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Regardless, it's none of our business to tell other countries how to run their affairs.
 
#42
#42
Pepe_Silvia said:
Regardless, it's none of our business to tell other countries how to run their affairs.
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How often have we ever injected ourselves militarily just to make a point? Theres always an underlying interest at stake.
 
#44
#44
RespectTradition said:
I don't confuse the people with the government. Either one, both, or neither can hate us. Or at least view us as an enemy. The Iranian government obviously does, even if all the people do not. I don't view the Afghan people as my enemy, but my government does.

I have no qualms lending moral support. As long as it ends there.
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We'd all be speaking German right now following this simplistic approach to complex issues.
 
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#45
#45
MG1968 said:
when did the US government declare that the Afghan people were the enemy?
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We have fought for them to have a country that has islamic sharia law as part of their constitution and have built over 80 mosques for them in their country.




RespectTradition said:
This just happens to be one of the topics that I agree with Ron Paul on.

Why Do They Hate Us? Santorum: We're Free; Paul: We're There
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Former head of the CIA’s Bin Laden Unit Michael Scheuer explains what Mr. Rumsfeld still can’t understand: “Our growing number of Islamist enemies are motivated to attack us because of what the U.S. government does in the Muslim world and not because of how Americans live and think here at home.”
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That may be what bin Laden was saying but in reality from the koran, any place not ruled by islam is of the 'house of war', meaning islamic jihad should be directed at those places until they are subdued and submit to islam and this has been true for nearly fifteen hundred years now.









RespectTradition said:
Let me see if I understand you.

I hate freedom because I want to stop imposing our will on other countries? because I think bases in Japan cost us money and does nothing to protect our safety? because I think people shouldn't be renditioned? because I think we should only employ our military to directly defend american soil?

Wow.

If you can find anyone who loves freedom more than me, then I want to meet him. He will be my new hero.

And I mean freedom in its real definition. Not some Orwellian vision that can justify endless wars as freedom or the Patriot Act as freedom, etc.
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Here are some of the reasons you listed for hating America:

1. Our freedom to insist that sovereign countries do as we tell them to

2. Our freedom to deploy our military to bases around the world

3. Our freedom to bomb anyone who disagrees with us

4. Our freedom to impose sanctions on countries who dare to chart their own course

5. Our freedom to be the only country to ever use nuclear weapons in anger

6. Our freedom to insist that no one else can join our nuclear weapons fraternity

7. Our freedom to kill anyone, anywhere, anytime and consider it to be justified

8. Our freedom to insist that if another country does the same, it is murder

9. Our freedom to use environmentally destructive technologies to get to the top of the economic food chain, then decide that it is bad and no one else should do the same

10. Our freedom to cause the deaths of countless innocents* and then claim we have the right to dethrone a dictator because he might do far less

11. Our freedom to detain anyone we think is suspicious but insist that other nations do not have that right

12. Our freedom to topple governments and install our stooges, then to attack them when they don't toe the line

13. Our freedom to invade and occupy another country, then tell them that their culture is wrong and they must adapt to our standards

14. Our freedom to manipulate our currency and condemn others for doing the same
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1. You have some examples of what countries we demand must do as we say?

2. Deployments must be agreed to by any sovereign nation, deployments in Japan and Germany had to do with treaties ending WWII and the Korean deployment was to prevent another invasion by No Korea.

I do agree we should greatly reduce deployments and close a lot of bases but how does that make anyone hate us. Most countries where we have bases greatly enjoy the money we spend there.

3. The bombing of Serbia was a travesty and Clinton did it without Congressional approval or UN resolution. The bombing of Libya was through a UN mandate to overthrow the government. Personally I wish we would withdraw from the UN entirely. I tend to agree on this one but still how does that make people hate us?

4. Sanctions mean nothing without most countries internationally agreeing with the sanctions. Our unilateral sanctions against Honduras were dispicable and uncalled for and show what a lousy administraion we currently have.

5. So what? We prevented all the America POWs from being executed and perhaps as many as a million of our men being killed when invadeing Japan, not counting all the countless millions of Japanese that would have been killed in such a struggle and the resultant physical damage to Japan.
That leftist guilt trip over the nuclear bomb makes sick to my stomach.

6. We didn't prevent Pakistan and India but when a country is building a bomb expressly to use against another country and say so then would anyone do what they could to prevent that?

7. If they are making war on us thatn that is justified imo.

8. It's not so much other countries doing that as it is radical groups.

9. Right! So why would any oil producing mideastern country hate us for that, they benefit immensely.

"Environmentally destructive' is right out of the green playbook.

10. So where are we killing all thse innocents?
I didn't support the 'Arab Spring', that was a bid idea as we will find out in the future.

11. The indefinate detention policy is getting a bit scary, as for combatants we have caught in the act, military tribunals should have been the answer but were blocked by leftists and libertarians.

12. Could you give me a short list of countries fitting that category?

13. Another short list would be in order.

14. That shows a serious lack of knowledge of how central banking works, I admit there is an element of truth to that but it stops short of getting to the real problem.

Bottom line is that the whole idea that people hate us because of what we do is ludicrous, those that really hate us are going to hate us no matter what we do and on amount of appeasement will change that, indeed that sort of policy will only lead to even more outrageous demands.












YorkVol said:
First off, the bases in Japan don't cost us as much as you think as the Japanese Government foots most of that bill. Those bases give us access to the region and provide the ability to uphold our treaty responsibilities for Japan and S. Korea. The stability and economic prosperity in the region, which pays off for US companies in a huge way, can be attributed to our presence in those countries. Those bases also provide a counter balance vis a vis China and Russia. If nK decides to open up and join the rest of the world we could rationalize the size of those bases, but they are a non-controversial win/win for everyone involved.

Regarding bases in the ME. Yes, UBL used bases in Saudi Arabia as his stated incentive for attacking the US but at the time we had a small logistics base with some stockpiles and US contractors. And none of it was anywhere near Medina. He lied. He and the rest of the Salafists attacked us because we are the only super power and being successful against us would build up his reputation--which it did. If you were a school kid who wanted to change your reputation in the school, who would you take on? The weakest guy or the biggest BA on the playground?

Again, the average Haji doesn't hate America, he loves what we stand for and is jealous that they can't do the same. That conflicting emotion is used by Imams and politicians to fire them up.
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I think you are pretty much right on the mark.

I've talked with many foreign nationals and most wish their country of orgin was more like America.
 
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#46
#46
tim said:
We'd all be speaking German right now following this simplistic approach to complex issues.
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Can you explain this? The trench warfare had pretty much stagnated and without our intervention the war would probably have wound down in another year or so. Pretty much everyone would have returned to the the pre-war status quo. If that had happened, then we wouldn't have had the rise of Hitler and no world war two. Who can be certain about what the USSR would have done, but there is a good chance that things would have played out differently and there would have been no communist block. No iron curtain. No cold war.

How would us minding our own business have led to us speaking German?
 
#47
#47
gsvol said:
Bottom line is that the whole idea that people hate us because of what we do is ludicrous, those that really hate us are going to hate us no matter what we do and on amount of appeasement will change that, indeed that sort of policy will only lead to even more outrageous demands.
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Did you just admit that your hatred of Muslims is irrational and not based on any actions they have taken? That you hate them no matter what they do?

Because if that is not what you are saying, then you are making no sense.

You can't have it both ways.

Or are you the only one who has reasons for your feelings and the 'bad guys' just do things for fun?
 
#48
#48
You haven't taken your meds today have you? People/governments are going to hate. I don't know of any period in history where this isn't true.
 
#50
#50
MG1968 said:
what I see here is Iranian-developed IED's are being used to kill US servicemen, so no, I don't find it acceptable or appropriate.

I would hope that you don't either. I know the rationalization of the Paulbots is that "well, if we never went there, Iran wouldn't be killing our boys" and on the surface, that's correct. However, you are fond of declaring absolute neutrality and staying out of other countries' conflicts. Why do you seek to justify Iran's actions against the US?
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It isn't about "justifying" Iran's actions. It's about understanding why they do them. Iran isn't seeking a nuclear weapon and killing US troops with IEDs in Iraq because "they're evil."

If a nation the United States viewed as hostile invaded Canada and Mexico, do you think we'd attempt covert actions on that nation's forces?

If our regional adversary had 200-400 nukes and a blank check of support from a nation that has around 8,000 of them, and neighboring nations had a few hundred of them, do you think we'd probably try and get one ourselves? Both Iran and Israel view themselves as having enemies all around them, and I think they are both correct.

This isn't about saying that what Iran is doing is OK. It is about understanding why they are doing what they are doing. If you think about it for two seconds, it makes absolutely perfect sense. Iran is behaving in a completely rational and logical fashion despite the "they're just crazy and we have to attack them" propaganda. In fact, most of their actions thus far have been defensive rather than aggressive.
 
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