This winter is killing two of the biggest scare tactic lies ever told...

#54
#54
g8terh8ter_eric said:
After seeing you argue this subject, one has to wonder how many government grants you have gotten honestly, and I'm not just talking about climate change.
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Zero. Had some scholarships in undergrad, but none of them governmental or having to do with climate change (I came in undeclared.)

Since then, I have worked my way through completely.
 
#56
#56
OrangeEmpire said:
Any one at all........ who cause more..... earth or man????? Any one???????
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I don't know if you are asking that question in the right way. How does the earth cause climate? If the question is, what has a bigger impact on our climate - the sun/earth system dynamics or man, then the answer is obviously the sun/earth system dynamics.

Likewise, your body temperature is caused by your natural regulatory systems (chemical reactions, blood flow, perspiration, etc.). If not for those factors, you would be the same temperature as the environment around you. However, if you wrap yourself in saran wrap so you can no longer sweat, your body will heat up. The overwhelming majority of your temperature (about 100 degrees of it) comes from your natural temperature source. The extra temperature due to wrapping yourself up is a small percentage of your full temperature, but the effects can be dangerous.
 
#57
#57
Ok, so the first paragraph you say the sun/earth then the second paragraph you say man.

Which is it?
 
#58
#58
OrangeEmpire said:
Thank you for your answer sir.

If we were talking %, what would it break down too?
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That's hard to say. They play off one another. Keep in mind, it's all a precarious balance. Make no mistake that the Earth's climate is 100 % powered by the Sun. Also, without the atmosphere, there would be no "climate" or weather at all. So clearly, the composition of the atmosphere matters. Which is where man comes in. This is semantics, but it isn't "man" himself that is influencing climate. It is the side effects of "man's" activities since the industrial revolution (especially), as well as "his growing numbers.

I don't feel like I could do the system justice by breaking into "percentages" like "success is 90 % perspiration and 10 % inspiration" or something.
 
#59
#59
OrangeEmpire said:
Ok, so the first paragraph you say the sun/earth then the second paragraph you say man.

Which is it?
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I didn't say man has a greater effect on climate in my second paragraph. I wasn't talking about climate at all.

My second paragraph was meant not so much as an analogy, because it would be a fairly poor one, but more as an example of a system that is controlled largely by factors we do not control (I can't make my brain tell my body to stop regulating temperature, can you?), yet we can affect.
 
#61
#61
TennTradition said:
I didn't say man has a greater effect on climate in my second paragraph. I wasn't talking about climate at all.

My second paragraph was meant not so much as an analogy, because it would be a fairly poor one, but more as an example of a system that is controlled largely by factors we do not control (I can't make my brain tell my body to stop regulating temperature, can you?), yet we can affect.
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It's ok, just say man is the primary evil.......

:eek:k:
 
#64
#64
One of these days, I am going to get you two so angry that when we finally meet you are going to call me an @$$hole and shank me with a wendy's plastic knife.
 
#65
#65
It's like trying break down into percentages what has more of an effect on winning football games percentage wise: Having great football players at your school, Having a football program, or not turning the ball over.

Weak analogy, but it is hard to come up with analogies with this stuff without resorting to some other temperature example.
 
#66
#66
TennTradition said:
Exactly.
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Ok, so when IBM talks about smart cities and all this other crap does it really help?

Should we stop using concrete and all this other heat stuff?
Although I am being an @$$, I do find the concrete stuff true. In Columbus, we say that I-270, the bypass, is the heat shield for the city.

I got 16 inches of snow in my town 30 miles north of C-bus while Columbus, only got around 6-8 inches.
 
#67
#67
OrangeEmpire said:
So, we should be hunter gatherers to play it safe?
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It's interesting that when you talk to people who don't buy into global climate change, they sooner or later shift the conversation away from whether it is "real" or not, to "but look at what that would mean" relative to our way of life. It's clear that one of the biggest hurdles with this issue is it's implications. Well, the truth is, the implications to our personal lives is irrelevant to whether the issue is real.
 
#68
#68
OrangeEmpire said:
Ok, so when IBM talks about smart cities and all this other crap does it really help?

Should we stop using concrete and all this other heat stuff?
Although I am being an @$$, I do find the concrete stuff true. In Columbus, we say that I-270, the bypass, is the heat shield for the city.

I got 16 inches of snow in my town 30 miles north of C-bus while Columbus, only got around 6-8 inches.
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Urban heat islands aren't really connected to global warming, because of the first law of thermodynamics.
 
#69
#69
OrangeEmpire said:
Ok, so when IBM talks about smart cities and all this other crap does it really help?

Should we stop using concrete and all this other heat stuff?
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I haven't studied life cycle 'cost' analyses on smart cities to answer that honestly. I think that concrete production is a large source of emissions...but I don't remember the numbers, and I certainly don't know the numbers of the processes/materials that we would use to replace it....and what the social cost of not using concrete anymore would be.

As OE pointed out, the aspect of concrete that I am mentioning is quite separate form the heat trapping aspects of concrete, and even more so, asphalt.
 
#70
#70
If it is real, I don't want my kid and his kids to suffer cause I kept my heat on 72 during the winter.
 
#72
#72
OrangeEmpire said:
Oh no, I believe in the heat shield/climate change, just really iffy about catostrophic climate change.
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Catastrophe is relative. The catastrophes will be driven by people's reaction to what we would consider more moderate ramifications of climate change.

I don't anticipate Florida submerging into the Gulf, for example, any time in the next couple centuries.
 
#73
#73
OrangeEmpire said:
If it is real, I don't want my kid and his kids to suffer cause I kept my heat on 72 during the winter.
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I don't think our kids will suffer anyway, OE. Some kids somewhere may suffer, but not ours, and that is the sad reality of it. We can afford to adapt as a nation. That alone doesn't convince me that we shouldn't act....but it is true, IMO.

With that said, using energy in smarter ways (more efficient homes, better ways to produce energy, etc.) could have a significant impact on future generations across the world.

I don't mean to gloss over the incredible positive impact that affordable energy has had on our life as Americans. I can look back at my grandparents and how their lives changed as a result of TVA. It's incredible. And those changes directly led to greater opportunities for my aunts and uncles, and by extension myself.

There is a social cost of acting and not acting. Figuring out how to do the calculation correctly is extremely difficult. It is easier for the uber-lefties because they see it as a moral prerogative that trumps any social cost for curbing emissions. I don't really see it that way...but that is the engineer coming out in me.
 
#74
#74
This argument is a pointless one to have anyways. Climate change maybe real, but it's not caused by man nor any of the things we are doing as a species. The more and more technological breakthroughs we have, the more and more man can't agree on things because everyone can make their data say what they want to.
 
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#75
#75
g8terh8ter_eric said:
This argument is a pointless one to have anyways. Climate change maybe real, but it's not caused by man nor any of the things we are doing as a species. The more and more technological breakthroughs we are have, the more and more man can't agree on things because everyone can make their data say what they want to.
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You've come to that conclusion, Eric, but "in the name of all things holy" I can't understand how you can honestly believe it with no equivocation. Sure, there are political agendas at play here, but that alone doesn't mean it's crap. There are plenty of seeds sewn by good scientific research that suggest that a portion of the warming we have seen is due to an enhanced greenhouse effect due to emissions caused by man's activities. Those seeds haven't grown into what I would call a forest of completely solid evidence (that's why I'm willing to equivocate on the issue), but they are there, and to cast them off with no equivocation suggests to me that 'the earth will take care of itself' is the only thing you will accept, regardless of other evidence.
 
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