Transfer Portal Thread

#2,126
#2,126
zjcvols said:
The contradiction is so strong in this I can’t believe it was even typed out.
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You don’t understand that defense and offense are separate? Barnes wants high effort defense first. He wants effective, efficient offense to complement the game plan and opportunities. You can still push an offensive pace and stay under control while not having the number of possessions run off of the chart.
 
#2,127
#2,127
bleedingTNorange said:
Wild to average 82ppg/#20th nationally while having a tempo that ranks 164…guess you can have an effective offense while not necessarily being uptempo.

I’m guessing we’re closer to that 164 this year than 270 average of last 2 years.
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Who said you couldn’t? Virginia consistent ranks elite in offensive efficiency and they are consistently in the 300’s.
 
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#2,128
#2,128
Thunder Good-Oil said:
You don’t understand that defense and offense are separate? Barnes wants high effort defense first. He wants effective, efficient offense to complement the game plan and opportunities. You can still push an offensive pace and stay under control while not having the number of possessions run off of the chart.
Click to expand...

You can have pace and higher number of possessions and still be “under control” yes I don’t disagree but that’s not the argument.

The argument is “Does Tennessee play with a higher tempo and push the pace” and the evidence repeatedly says we don’t do that. We play a more deliberate half court game. Which again the numbers repeatedly bear that out.
 
#2,129
#2,129
zjcvols said:
“I don’t believe Barnes is married to a half court offense but we won’t be running a high number of possessions because he values defense and playing under control.”

SOUNDS LIKE HE PREFERS LIMITING POSSESSIONS TO ME
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The number of possessions is different from the pace of an offense. A better way to look at it is how quickly offensive opportunities are generated on each possession. If there are always zero looks in the first half of the shot clock then it is a deliberately slow pace. Passing on an early opportunity while expecting a higher probability later isn’t being deliberately a slow pace. I consider a slow pace to be ignoring any early opportunity and always running down the shot clock to shorten games.

Before Grunfeld Mears valued an uber slow pace and a high scoring efficiency after crossing half court. Devoe was much the same before the 45-second shot clock. Barnes’ offensive philosophy is different.
 
#2,130
#2,130
zjcvols said:
You can have pace and higher number of possessions and still be “under control” yes I don’t disagree but that’s not the argument.

The argument is “Does Tennessee play with a higher tempo and push the pace” and the evidence repeatedly says we don’t do that. We play a more deliberate half court game. Which again the numbers repeatedly bear that out.
Click to expand...

Actually the original argument was that Barnes would like to play fast on offense. The obscure stat is flawed at disproving that.
 
#2,132
#2,132
Thunder Good-Oil said:
The number of possessions is different from the pace of an offense. A better way to look at it is how quickly offensive opportunities are generated on each possession. If there are always zero looks in the first half of the shot clock then it is a deliberately slow pace. Passing on an early opportunity while expecting a higher probability later isn’t being deliberately a slow pace. I consider a slow pace to be ignoring any early opportunity and always running down the shot clock to shorten games.

Before Grunfeld Mears valued an uber slow pace and a high scoring efficiency after crossing half court. Devoe was much the same before the 45-second shot clock. Barnes’ offensive philosophy is different.
Click to expand...

Tennessee ranks in average time of possession

2021: 165th
2020: 261st
2019: 123rd
2018: 269th
2017: 178th
2016: 114th

Not exactly looking for quick shots in the half court
 
#2,133
#2,133
Thunder Good-Oil said:
Actually the original argument was that Barnes would like to play fast on offense. The obscure stat is flawed at disproving that.
Click to expand...

Okay fine, I just posted average time of possession on offense. Not one in the top 100 since he got to UT. Doesn’t sound fast to me.
 
#2,134
#2,134
Average possession length rank: 185th

Average adjusted tempo: 205th

Hmmmmmm…🤭🤭🤭
 
#2,136
#2,136
zjcvols said:
Tennessee ranks in average time of possession

2021: 165th
2020: 261st
2019: 123rd
2018: 269th
2017: 178th
2016: 114th

Not exactly looking for quick shots in the half court
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Disciplined shot selection. I didn’t say taking quick shots which is what this stat infers. I said creating opportunities quickly. Walking the ball into the front court versus racing into it and pulling out for a better opportunity. Doesn’t mean they aren’t being passed over looking for better shots. Pace isn’t something that can be easily defined with stats. A highly disciplined team will statistically appear to be running a slower pace than one that throws up bad shots with all other things being equal.

Number of passes per possession would be a better measure of pace. A couple of years ago some players were dribbling out the shot clock a lot. Turner was one early in his career.

Post your source and the other flaws in this stat should emerge.
 
#2,137
#2,137
How does this new stat incorporate offensive rebounds? If the time per possession is measured from the moment taking possession until the other team has the ball then teams grabbing a lot of offensive rebounds are penalized. If the time of possession is reset after each shot attempt tgen poor shooting teams with a lot of put backs are rewarded.

I’ve witnessed Barnes coach almost 200 games at TN. A deliberate pace isn’t his MO. Early Mears and some of Devoe’s early teams ran deliberately slow offenses.
 
#2,138
#2,138
Thunder Good-Oil said:
Disciplined shot selection. I didn’t say taking quick shots which is what this stat infers. I said creating opportunities quickly. Walking the ball into the front court versus racing into it and pulling out for a better opportunity. Doesn’t mean they aren’t being passed over looking for better shots. Pace isn’t something that can be easily defined with stats. A highly disciplined team will statistically appear to be running a slower pace than one that throws up bad shots with all other things being equal.

Number of passes per possession would be a better measure of pace. A couple of years ago some players were dribbling out the shot clock a lot. Turner was one early in his career.

Post your source and the other flaws in this stat should emerge.
Click to expand...

This isn’t what it means. Passes has nothing to do with pace. Pace is specifically defined in basketball as number of possessions per game.

And I’m sorry…what is an opportunity in basketball? A shot right? Okay so you’re saying we don’t take shots quick but we create opportunities quickly? You mean the opportunity to take a shot? So we create the opportunities to take quick shots but we don’t actually take quick shots…so what are we actually creating then? Are you actually reading what you post?

And kenpom literally just takes the average time an offense has the ball. There isn’t even any sort of adjustment made.

So really what this now boils down to is “I’m wrong but instead of admitting I was wrong I’m going to change meanings and definitions to try and fit my argument” and with that…I’m out.
 
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#2,139
#2,139
This is all I'm going to post about tempo. I believe with Chandler running point, we will push it more. But, imo, a good to great defensive rebounding game is even more important, plus the rebounder needs to make the quick outlet pass to KC or even be able to start the break their selves, kinda like Keon and Jaden did for about 5 games, starting with UK. UT not only didn't have a true point, they didn't have a dominant rebounder who knew how to start break, the last couple of years. Do we have that guy this year or do we have a great defensive rebounding team, this year ? I think we will be better, maybe no dominant shot-blocker, but that doesn't lead to a break much, unless u have Bill Russell. Now, that's a guy that knew how to start a break and no, I never saw him play, but I've watched a lot of NBA classis highlights.
Damn, I'm rambling, first time I've had weed in a week
 
#2,140
#2,140
zjcvols said:
This isn’t what it means. Passes has nothing to do with pace. Pace is specifically defined in basketball as number of possessions per game.

And I’m sorry…what is an opportunity in basketball? A shot right? Okay so you’re saying we don’t take shots quick but we create opportunities quickly? You mean the opportunity to take a shot? So we create the opportunities to take quick shots but we don’t actually take quick shots…so what are we actually creating then? Are you actually reading what you post?

And kenpom literally just takes the average time an offense has the ball. There isn’t even any sort of adjustment made.

So really what this now boils down to is “I’m wrong but instead of admitting I was wrong I’m going to change meanings and definitions to try and fit my argument” and with that…I’m out.
Click to expand...

Kenpom isn’t the dictator of basketball terminology. Pace is subjective. Moving the ball quickly, whether racing to the front court or in an organized half court set, indicates playing at a fast pace. The frequency of organizing possessions into set plays compared to fast breaks doesn’t define pace. Defensive effort affects that mix of possessions. A slow pace is intentionally dribbling out possessions deep into shot clocks. A slow pace is players standing around instead of being in constant motion without the ball.

Possessions per game is 50% dependent on opponents. Opponents that play little defense result in more possessions. Teams in the SEC pretty much all put a lot of effort into defense, which means fewer possessions, which DOES NOT mean that there is an offensive philosophy to slow down play.

Not having a true PG means defenses are more likely to press. That means the offense will be played at a slower pace IF it’s being defined simply using number of possessions. TN only had a true PG while their best player, a 2x SEC POY, was their biggest threat and it came when he posted up near the basket. Posting up takes more time to execute. There will be fewer possessions.

Variables such as speedy PGs, defensive pressure, shooting percentages, opponents having rim protectors (or not), ability to grab offensive boards, trying to draw fouls, and refs stopping play contribute to the number of possessions. Energy and being active define pace. It’s mostly subjective. I’ve seen CRB encourage players to play faster. Other than in end of half or game clock management scenarios, I’ve never seen Barnes instruct his players to slow down. I don’t believe that Barnes prefers a slower pace.
 
#2,141
#2,141
Thunder Good-Oil said:
You don’t understand that defense and offense are separate? Barnes wants high effort defense first. He wants effective, efficient offense to complement the game plan and opportunities. You can still push an offensive pace and stay under control while not having the number of possessions run off of the chart.
Click to expand...
Can’t run without the ball. Defense leads to transition buckets. They’re not necessarily separate.
 
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#2,144
#2,144
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