Trump's Trade War with China a Total Failure

#76
#76
I understand. Global issues are rarely solved in a two sentence overview. There is enormous complexity. However, to intentionally keep it simple...if we are going to trade, we need to dialogue about equitable trade and not force the issue. If we are offended by their theft and cheating, then we have the option of not trading. We are freely trading with a bad government (an action i favor), but that freedom shouldn't be forced. Americans are the people benefiting, after all.

We could block all trade with China until the CCP is forced to back down, but we can't because we can't restart our own industrial production overnight. The chip problem and dependent manufacturing is just one very simple example of not being self sufficient. We are where we are because of our own outlandish manufacturing costs and Chinese predatory pricing. They saw the opportunity and jumped - aided by our own complicit globalists and liberals pandering to labor.
 
#79
#79
Manipulating free trade isn’t the answer. He should have pressured the WTO and IMF to put the screws to them over the currency devaluation (which) is what the main problem is anyway. But I do agree with you that I don’t fault him for trying to reign them in, they’re a terrible actor. I just disagree with the way it was done.

The world courts also ruled that China doesn't really own a bunch of those islands in the S China Sea, didn't change a damn thing. Pieces of paper without action does nothing to resolve wrongdoing, but nobody is willing to provoke the Chinese military.
 
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#80
#80
That's not a response but a sophomoric jibe. Trump and Xi reached an agreement from the tariff war that China has only fulfilled 57%. Is that due to lowered economic activity during the pandemic or is China simply not honoring the agreement? If China is simply breaking the bargain, do we attempt to force them to do so? Or do you assert, as Biden's Joint Chief Chairman MIley does, that China is not an enemy and we continue business as usual?

The trade war was never only about leavening trade with China but part of a realignment of the West regarding China. Warts and all, here's Paul Taylor, senior fellow at Friends of Europe:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Biden time
But after the November elections, studiously neutral Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg could hardly disguise his eagerness in inviting President-elect Joe Biden, whom he called a "strong supporter of NATO and the transatlantic relationship" to visit Brussels for what he unmistakeably called a "summit," to be held as soon as the new administration can possibly manage it.

Having a less unpredictable partner in Washington is hugely important, as NATO is in the process of improving its recognition of and response to serious challenges facing the 30 governments. "It's been a wild roller-coaster ride," Paul Taylor, senior fellow at Friends of Europe, tells DW. "At the end of it, NATO has survived Donald Trump — not unscathed and not unchanged."

For better, for worse
Some of those changes have been at least partially positive, even if they left scars on the alliance's psyche. For example, while Trump did not, as he frequently misstates, prompt a reversal of allies' decline in defense spending — that already happened in 2014 — it is credible that nations boosted their military budgets faster toward the NATO goal of 2% of GDP in an effort to avoid his public haranguing.


"He also got [allies] talking about China," Taylor notes. "That's something that was never on NATO's agenda. And whether it would have come anyway, I don't know, but it happened on his watch and it happened at his insistence."

But it would be hard, if not impossible, to find an upside to the uncoordinated and abrupt withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan and Iraq, where NATO service members are helping train local forces to eventually manage their own security. Trump's surprise announcements were unsettling to both NATO, which was not consulted, and to governments with personnel on the ground that will now be in a more vulnerable position without added American backup.

The "China challenge"
Their new report, "NATO 2030: United for a New Era," (Dec. 2020) concludes a "persistently aggressive" Russia will continue to be the biggest military threat to the alliance over the next decade, but China definitely steals the thunder as an up-and-comer.


"It was manifestly clear from our consultations with experts and with allies," Mitchell told a Carnegie Europe briefing on the report. "The rise of China is is the single biggest, most consequential change in NATO's strategic environment and one that the alliance really has to reckon with." What's next for NATO after Donald Trump? | DW | 28.12.2020
----------------------------------------------------------
Suddenly, Chris Wray wakes up and gets it:

According to Wray, Chinese President Xi Jinping’s government steals “staggering” amounts of information, causing “deep, job-destroying damage across a wide range of industries — so much so that … we’re constantly opening new cases to counter their intelligence operations, about every 12 hours or so.”

“There is just no country that presents a broader threat to our ideas, our innovation, and our economic security than China,” he said.

According to the FBI director, Beijing uses an “insidious” strategy of announcing their desire to build up various industries — “like robotics, green energy production and vehicles, aerospace, biopharma, and so on,” as Wray put it.

“And then, they throw every tool in their arsenal at stealing that technology to succeed in those areas,” he went on. “Here in the US, they unleash a massive, sophisticated hacking program that is bigger than those of every other major nation combined. Operating from pretty much every major city in China, with a lot of funding and sophisticated tools, and often joining forces with cyber criminals, in effect, cyber mercenaries.”

He also contrasted the dangers posed by China with those presented by the Soviet Union during the Cold War.

“The Soviet Union didn’t make much that anyone in America wanted to buy. We didn’t invest in each other’s economies or send huge numbers of students to study in each other’s universities,” Wray said.

“The US and today’s China are far more interconnected than the US and the old USSR ever were, and China is an economic power on a level the Soviets could never have dreamed of being.” FBI Director Christopher Wray says China is top threat to US
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, answer the questions I posed to you above, or continue taking positions on things you don't understand while talking as if you do.

Addictions are so easy to start, and so hard to stop. The Chinese have been pushing some very addictive candy to the US consumer and to decision makers who could make a quick buck.

For anybody who thinks trade wars can't work, imagine what would happen at the US southern border if we told Mexico that starting tomorrow no US manufacturer (like auto companies) would be allowed to import either completed products, sub assemblies, or parts made in Mexico, and that we would revisit the ban if illegal imports of drugs and people stopped.
 
#81
#81
Tariffs don't work?!?!

Dang. Throwing my 1920s textbooks out the window.

Praise Jebus that Donald J. Trump is still a "stable genius".
 
#82
#82
That's not a response but a sophomoric jibe. Trump and Xi reached an agreement from the tariff war that China has only fulfilled 57%. Is that due to lowered economic activity during the pandemic or is China simply not honoring the agreement? If China is simply breaking the bargain, do we attempt to force them to do so? Or do you assert, as Biden's Joint Chief Chairman MIley does, that China is not an enemy and we continue business as usual?

The trade war was never only about leavening trade with China but part of a realignment of the West regarding China. Warts and all, here's Paul Taylor, senior fellow at Friends of Europe:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Biden time
But after the November elections, studiously neutral Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg could hardly disguise his eagerness in inviting President-elect Joe Biden, whom he called a "strong supporter of NATO and the transatlantic relationship" to visit Brussels for what he unmistakeably called a "summit," to be held as soon as the new administration can possibly manage it.

Having a less unpredictable partner in Washington is hugely important, as NATO is in the process of improving its recognition of and response to serious challenges facing the 30 governments. "It's been a wild roller-coaster ride," Paul Taylor, senior fellow at Friends of Europe, tells DW. "At the end of it, NATO has survived Donald Trump — not unscathed and not unchanged."

For better, for worse
Some of those changes have been at least partially positive, even if they left scars on the alliance's psyche. For example, while Trump did not, as he frequently misstates, prompt a reversal of allies' decline in defense spending — that already happened in 2014 — it is credible that nations boosted their military budgets faster toward the NATO goal of 2% of GDP in an effort to avoid his public haranguing.


"He also got [allies] talking about China," Taylor notes. "That's something that was never on NATO's agenda. And whether it would have come anyway, I don't know, but it happened on his watch and it happened at his insistence."

But it would be hard, if not impossible, to find an upside to the uncoordinated and abrupt withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan and Iraq, where NATO service members are helping train local forces to eventually manage their own security. Trump's surprise announcements were unsettling to both NATO, which was not consulted, and to governments with personnel on the ground that will now be in a more vulnerable position without added American backup.

The "China challenge"
Their new report, "NATO 2030: United for a New Era," (Dec. 2020) concludes a "persistently aggressive" Russia will continue to be the biggest military threat to the alliance over the next decade, but China definitely steals the thunder as an up-and-comer.


"It was manifestly clear from our consultations with experts and with allies," Mitchell told a Carnegie Europe briefing on the report. "The rise of China is is the single biggest, most consequential change in NATO's strategic environment and one that the alliance really has to reckon with." What's next for NATO after Donald Trump? | DW | 28.12.2020
----------------------------------------------------------
Suddenly, Chris Wray wakes up and gets it:

According to Wray, Chinese President Xi Jinping’s government steals “staggering” amounts of information, causing “deep, job-destroying damage across a wide range of industries — so much so that … we’re constantly opening new cases to counter their intelligence operations, about every 12 hours or so.”

“There is just no country that presents a broader threat to our ideas, our innovation, and our economic security than China,” he said.

According to the FBI director, Beijing uses an “insidious” strategy of announcing their desire to build up various industries — “like robotics, green energy production and vehicles, aerospace, biopharma, and so on,” as Wray put it.

“And then, they throw every tool in their arsenal at stealing that technology to succeed in those areas,” he went on. “Here in the US, they unleash a massive, sophisticated hacking program that is bigger than those of every other major nation combined. Operating from pretty much every major city in China, with a lot of funding and sophisticated tools, and often joining forces with cyber criminals, in effect, cyber mercenaries.”

He also contrasted the dangers posed by China with those presented by the Soviet Union during the Cold War.

“The Soviet Union didn’t make much that anyone in America wanted to buy. We didn’t invest in each other’s economies or send huge numbers of students to study in each other’s universities,” Wray said.

“The US and today’s China are far more interconnected than the US and the old USSR ever were, and China is an economic power on a level the Soviets could never have dreamed of being.” FBI Director Christopher Wray says China is top threat to US
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, answer the questions I posed to you above, or continue taking positions on things you don't understand while talking as if you do.

Thread ender for the OP.
 
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#83
#83
Addictions are so easy to start, and so hard to stop. The Chinese have been pushing some very addictive candy to the US consumer and to decision makers who could make a quick buck.

For anybody who thinks trade wars can't work, imagine what would happen at the US southern border if we told Mexico that starting tomorrow no US manufacturer (like auto companies) would be allowed to import either completed products, sub assemblies, or parts made in Mexico, and that we would revisit the ban if illegal imports of drugs and people stopped.

I think this was Trumps plan when he said "Mexico will pay for it". For the goons, it doesn't have to be cash in the traditional sense they would 1st think of. There are ways to go about it like keeping illegals on their side of the border. Goodwill in accounting terms have a value.
 
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#84
#84
Making products sure is cheaper when somebody else does the R&D for you ... whether they give it to you freely or not. Companies like Apple are stupid if they think can manufacture in China and not give up all their trade secrets and manufacturing expertise, but then Apple probably doesn't really care unless/until SinoApple starts taking away their business. An article the other day pointed out that China manufactures essentially all our pharmaceuticals or the compounds US companies use to produce them. Imagine going to war with a country that owns you in that manner - and it is just a matter of time whether it's war or just capitulation without a shot fired.
I understand your points and I agree with them. However, we (Americans) want the freedom to trade with the billion Chinese people AND we want to China to play fair. American corps knew who China was when they made the deal with them. Grousing about it after the fact is childish.
Apple got access to a billion people but had their tech stolen. Pharma companies got access to cheap chems and compounds but put medicated folks at risk if the unthinkable happens.
This was their choice. They knew the risks. Tough ****.
 
#85
#85
I understand your points and I agree with them. However, we (Americans) want the freedom to trade with the billion Chinese people AND we want to China to play fair. American corps knew who China was when they made the deal with them. Grousing about it after the fact is childish.
Apple got access to a billion people but had their tech stolen. Pharma companies got access to cheap chems and compounds but put medicated folks at risk if the unthinkable happens.
This was their choice. They knew the risks. Tough ****.

Cavalier way to look at it.
 
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#86
#86
We could block all trade with China until the CCP is forced to back down, but we can't because we can't restart our own industrial production overnight. The chip problem and dependent manufacturing is just one very simple example of not being self sufficient. We are where we are because of our own outlandish manufacturing costs and Chinese predatory pricing. They saw the opportunity and jumped - aided by our own complicit globalists and liberals pandering to labor.
Puhleeeze.
How many years have you been aware of losing our industrial production to China? If it has been 5+ years, then don't give me "we can't get it back overnight".
The truth is we want it cheap AND we want to blame China when things are rocky AND we want our corrupt government to "fix" it.
If it's that untenable, then corps need to have fail safe backup options in the US or Mexico.
 
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#88
#88
How else can we look at it?

No one forced Apple or Merck into China. In fact, I suspect corps had to lobby uncle Sam pretty hard to be allowed to turn production over to china.

I get your point but it's not the corps that will end up paying the piper, it us. Granted we are the ones that ultimately hold the blame since we want cheap **** and vote for politicians who line their pockets off off these deals. But what the hell, it will all come crashing down and our kids or grand kids will have to deal with it, not us.
 
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#89
#89
I get your point but it's not the corps that will end up paying the piper, it us. Granted we are the ones that ultimately hold the blame since we want cheap **** and vote for politicians who line their pockets off off these deals. But what the hell, it will all come crashing down and our kids or grand kids will have to deal with it, not us.
Oh, there's no doubt the chickens will roost on our heirs.
 
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#90
#90
I understand your points and I agree with them. However, we (Americans) want the freedom to trade with the billion Chinese people AND we want to China to play fair. American corps knew who China was when they made the deal with them. Grousing about it after the fact is childish.
Apple got access to a billion people but had their tech stolen. Pharma companies got access to cheap chems and compounds but put medicated folks at risk if the unthinkable happens.
This was their choice. They knew the risks. Tough ****.
Puhleeeze.
How many years have you been aware of losing our industrial production to China? If it has been 5+ years, then don't give me "we can't get it back overnight".
The truth is we want it cheap AND we want to blame China when things are rocky AND we want our corrupt government to "fix" it.
If it's that untenable, then corps need to have fail safe backup options in the US or Mexico.

Agree. It was something of the drill sergeant "mind over matter" philosophy. He didn't mind, and you didn't matter. Look at the people who profited from covid; they are likely the same people who profited from trade with China. They are also people who have clout that the rest of us don't. At one point we had an option to buy higher priced (non Chinese) made stuff; and when faced with fiscal constraints, most people opt for price if they think utility is approximately equivalent. You really can't blame them - it's now just pretty much finding out the enemy is you yourself, but not necessarily how you thought it would come to be.

A lot of those decisions were made for us by corporations over which we have no control - the suppliers of our pharmaceuticals right down to gas emitting wallboard. Go on Amazon and look at any number of products, and you'll often find a lot of competing products - all made in China and all appear to be made by just one or two manufacturers. It doesn't make a lot of difference if you shop Amazon or a number of other places - it's all made in China. Maybe initially we did vote with our monetary choice - that's competition. What we didn't bargain for was that US companies would just sell out rather than finding ways to compete. Short term thinking at the corporate level. How well will the short term thinking work when there aren't US consumers because there aren't US workers ... but that will be long term and somebody else's problem.
 
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#91
#91
Agree. It was something of the drill sergeant "mind over matter" philosophy. He didn't mind, and you didn't matter. Look at the people who profited from covid; they are likely the same people who profited from trade with China. They are also people who have clout that the rest of us don't. At one point we had an option to buy higher priced (non Chinese) made stuff; and when faced with fiscal constraints, most people opt for price if they think utility is approximately equivalent. You really can't blame them - it's now just pretty much finding out the enemy is you yourself, but not necessarily how you thought it would come to be.

A lot of those decisions were made for us by corporations over which we have no control - the suppliers of our pharmaceuticals right down to gas emitting wallboard. Go on Amazon and look at any number of products, and you'll often find a lot of competing products - all made in China and all appear to be made by just one or two manufacturers. It doesn't make a lot of difference if you shop Amazon or a number of other places - it's all made in China. Maybe initially we did vote with our monetary choice - that's competition. What we didn't bargain for was that US companies would just sell out rather than finding ways to compete. Short term thinking at the corporate level. How well will the short term thinking work when there aren't US consumers because there aren't US workers ... but that will be long term and somebody else's problem.
The Corps are making the same decision as the consumer for the same reason. Cost. Labor is typically the highest cost. So when it is cheaper in China they take advantage. They no more sold out than the consumer did.
Yall want the government to level the playing field ...or more correctly stated...increase the cost of product from China. How would you feel if the government passed a sales tax on Chinese products that consumers pay at the register?
 
#93
#93
The Corps are making the same decision as the consumer for the same reason. Cost. Labor is typically the highest cost. So when it is cheaper in China they take advantage. They no more sold out than the consumer did.
Yall want the government to level the playing field ...or more correctly stated...increase the cost of product from China. How would you feel if the government passed a sales tax on Chinese products that consumers pay at the register?

I'd be fine with that sales tax if it was used to lock up policymakers who make bad decisions but certainly not redistribution to the unthinking consumer.

Much of the labor cost goes back to the federal government for failing to create and maintain a level playing field. Think back to the 50s and 60s and the "Big Three" vs the UAW. Each year the UAW picked one car company as the one in the barrel and subsidized the strike by income (dues) from the other two companies - and got support from people like the Teamsters. The contract once ratified was pushed on the other two manufacturers - and then the feds pumped the minimum wage. Antitrust rules didn't cover unions but they sure kept the automakers from mutual support. That was on the government and greedy unions. Then move to the Japanese imports and OPEC in the 70s. Two ton behemoths on the road didn't get much out of scarce gas, and by comparison Japanese imports sipped gas. The Japanese ate our lunch - that was on the auto execs. You also have corporate marketing - consumers can only buy what is pushed at them - contrary to the thought that manufacturers actually produce what customers demand.
 
#94
#94
"Trump's trade war was disastrous for the U.S. almost any way one calculates."

"Today the only undisputed 'historical' aspect of that agreement is its failure."

"China bought none of the additional $200 billion of exports Trump's deal had promised." The 57% was "not even enough to reach its import levels from before the trade war."

Column: Trump's trade deal with China turned out to be a huge, costly bust
The Author of this opinion piece is a known liberal writer and anti-Trumper. He was once suspended from the LA times for using a false identity online to trash conservative commentators. He wrote extensively about Trump's ties to Russia before Mueller came up empty. Curiously he has avoided any opinion columns about Hillary getting caught spying on Trump and pushing the false Russia narrative. Not exactly someone whose opinion should be taken seriously.
 
#95
#95
How else can we look at it?

No one forced Apple or Merck into China. In fact, I suspect corps had to lobby uncle Sam pretty hard to be allowed to turn production over to china.

I agree. Apple and other tech company CEO's suck up to Xi.
 
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#96
#96
I think people still do not select on the amount of industrial and military espionage taking place just with Chinese nationals at our Universities and institutions. Trillions of hard earned R&D.
I would kick all dem SOB's out pronto.
 

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