TrumPutinGate

#8,102
#8,102
tell us what you believe happened Velo - put a theory on the table so we can evaluate it and return to see if you were right or wrong.
 
#8,106
#8,106
Still can't publicly state a theory of collusion Velo or even tell us if you believe Trump colluded with Russia in the election?

Why the reluctance?
 
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#8,107
#8,107
Does everyone now accept as fact that Russia tried to influence the election in favor of Trump?
If so, then the questions to be answered now are:
Why?
Was Trump or his team aware of the efforts?
Did Trump or his team collude with the efforts?
What was the impact of the Russian interference?

These will all hopefully be answered through the investigations.
 
#8,108
#8,108
luthervol said:
Does everyone now accept as fact that Russia tried to influence the election in favor of Trump?
If so, then the questions to be answered now are:
Why?
Was Trump or his team aware of the efforts?
Did Trump or his team collude with the efforts?
What was the impact of the Russian interference?

These will all hopefully be answered through the investigations.
Click to expand...

100% sure Russia tried to interfere
60% sure it was to help Trump - official line from intelligence was "disrupt elections" and "cause people to question" the elections.

I'll reverse 3 and 4: I don't think Trump colluded and doubt his team did (at least not at his direction). Aware of interference? Hard to say. Was Hillary aware of interference? She had more of an inside line to the intelligence than Trump did.

Impact of the interference? Success - given they wanted to undermine confidence in the process they have succeeded and the investigation, the way the media has handled this, the targeted leaks and the actions of Democrats have assured that indeed people have less confidence in the process.

Did they change votes? Hard to say but if they did then it is more likely that they influenced Dems to not support Hillary than they did in getting people to support Trump. That's pretty interesting.
 
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#8,109
#8,109
volinbham said:
You mean like paying to fabricate a story linking Trump to Russian interference?
Click to expand...

Fabricate? Or assemble some loose form of opposition research?

At rate in the main I never saw the dossier presented as anything more than a collection of unsubstantiated rumors/allegations.

volinbham said:
Still can't publicly state a theory of collusion Velo or even tell us if you believe Trump colluded with Russia in the election?

Why the reluctance?
Click to expand...

At this point I can't say with certainty that there was operational coordination between the campaign and the Russian government (although Trump on camera did make an appeal for the Russians to help him).

That's hardly the end of the story though, and you know it.

This article, dated January 31, 2017, will likely be relevant to future discussions.

Deutsche Bank fined for $10 billion Russian money-laundering scheme
 
#8,112
#8,112
Velo Vol said:
Nope. Most of them present only one side, spin, tell half-truths, present best-case scenarios, whatever.

I'm talking about someone creating an entirely phony imagine of who he is and what he's going to do.
Click to expand...

And somehow you believe politicians don't do this...?
 
#8,113
#8,113
The real question is, Was all the hacking done by Russia? I'm sure China had no part in any hacking that went on. What about North Korea, Saudi or even Mexico.

China and Mexico both had reasons to try and hack the election. With the the new deal Hillary was about to make with them. I'm sure they had billions or trillions of reasons to try and interfere.

A Trump presidency only kills a deal for trade, jobs and lighter restrictions for both of these countries, sending goods to the USA.
 
#8,114
#8,114
volinbham said:
Hard to say but if they did then it is more likely that they influenced Dems to not support Hillary than they did in getting people to support Trump. That's pretty interesting.
Click to expand...

I'd say the DNC did a pretty good job of that themselves. But it was the hacking that brought it to light.

The media wants to ignore it (except a little bit as of late), but the DNC is fractured right now. For all the talk of how the GOP was a complete mess around the convention and how it was likely they were going to split, they conveniently ignored the fact the divide was far greater with the DNC base.
 
#8,115
#8,115
there all a bunch of crooks. they all lie like hell. take bribes and the rich get richer and the rest of us get the shaft. it does not matter who is in office. one is as bad as the other you will not know the deference. it is just theater and drama . it is not real ..
 
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#8,116
#8,116
Velo Vol said:
Fabricate? Or assemble some loose form of opposition research?

At rate in the main I never saw the dossier presented as anything more than a collection of unsubstantiated rumors/allegations.



At this point I can't say with certainty that there was operational coordination between the campaign and the Russian government (although Trump on camera did make an appeal for the Russians to help him).

That's hardly the end of the story though, and you know it.

This article, dated January 31, 2017, will likely be relevant to future discussions.

Deutsche Bank fined for $10 billion Russian money-laundering scheme
Click to expand...

None of us can say there was collusion - I'm asking if you believe there was.

As for non-collusion other stuff I'm sure one digs deep enough with the resources the govt can bring to the table something will be found. The original topic of this thread however is about the alleged collusion. That is looking more and more unlikely.
 
#8,117
#8,117
volinbham said:
None of us can say there was collusion - I'm asking if you believe there was.

As for non-collusion other stuff I'm sure one digs deep enough with the resources the govt can bring to the table something will be found. The original topic of this thread however is about the alleged collusion. That is looking more and more unlikely.
Click to expand...

I believe there was specific knowledge by some close to Trump. I believe Trump had general knowledge and probably just gave a knowing wink and a nod. I'm not sure what will constitute "collusion". If Trump had knowledge and did more to encourage than discourage, then it approaches collusion in my mind.
 
#8,118
#8,118
Grand Vol said:
And somehow you believe politicians don't do this...?
Click to expand...

No, most politicians keep most of their commentary to policy and don't crow about how they are the greatest ever while continuing to say ridiculous things to the contrary. (e.g., "most people don't know Lincoln was a Republican" [said at a GOP event!).
 
#8,119
#8,119
Velo Vol said:
No, most politicians keep most of their commentary to policy and don't crow about how they are the greatest ever while continuing to say ridiculous things to the contrary. (e.g., "most people don't know Lincoln was a Republican" [said at a GOP event!).
Click to expand...

Shifting the goal posts I see.
 
#8,120
#8,120
volinbham said:
None of us can say there was collusion - I'm asking if you believe there was.
Click to expand...

There were Trump underlings who had relationships with Russian government before the campaign and who had undisclosed contacts after the election. Do I believe the back and forth stopped during the campaign?

No, I do not.
 
#8,121
#8,121
Velo Vol said:
There were Trump underlings who had relationships with Russian government before the campaign and who had undisclosed contacts after the election. Do I believe the back and forth stopped during the campaign?

No, I do not.
Click to expand...

The Putin Trump issue will most certainly expose the biggest consumers of "fake news". Even when it's exposed as a farce, they will continue carrying the narrative forward. It's going to be fantastic.
 
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#8,123
#8,123
Grand Vol said:
I'd say the DNC did a pretty good job of that themselves. But it was the hacking that brought it to light.

The media wants to ignore it (except a little bit as of late), but the DNC is fractured right now. For all the talk of how the GOP was a complete mess around the convention and how it was likely they were going to split, they conveniently ignored the fact the divide was far greater with the DNC base.
Click to expand...


The divide within the Dem party right now is over what is important. As in the GOP, there are elements within the Dem party that have as their priority and want to emphasize social issues. Whereas, the mainstream of the party wants to make the core message one of economics.

The GOP has its wing of making everything about abortion or gay rights.

The Dem has its wing of wanting to make everything about racial minority or gay rights.

The GOP mainstream wants to downplay those issues, viewing them as divisive, and focus on lowering taxes and regulation on businesses and the wealthy with the notion it will cause massive growth, that will benefit everyone.

The Dem mainstream wants to downplay its social policy wings, also viewing them as needlessly divisive, and focus on tax cuts and a broader social safety net for the lower and middle classes, reasoning that the wealthy and big business have done just fine in the last 20 years, and what is needed to spur growth is middle class consumption demand.
 
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