Unborn babies are equal to slaves in many ways

#1
NEO

NEO

Eat at Joe's
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#1
Both were at the mercy of someone else and their fate was completely out of their hands.

Both could be killed just because someone who had legal authority over them felt like it.

Both were considered sub-human, less than human, and not part of the American legal system.

But if someone other than the one who had legal authority over them killed them, the convicted party could face time in prison or owe civil damages.

The majority of both, in the history of America, have been black.

Which leads me to my question...

At some point in time, some scientist will be able to pin point when life actually begins. It may not be in our life time but it will happen. When that happens will the history books look back upon the millions of babies that were butchered and view it with 20/20 vision the way we today view the slave owners?

As a part of our history we never wished had happened and are ashamed of.
 
#2
#2
If we are talking late-term abortions for no other reason than the mother suddenly decided she no longer wanted the child, then you have a point.

However, anything short of that is opening up a can of worms. You are just going to evoke yet another abortion thread which will not change anybody's mind. Everybody's position on abortion can be boiled down to their answer to one seemingly simple question:

What is life and when does it begin?
 
#3
#3
My question is not about now.

It is about when some scientist actually pin points the day life starts.

At that point, abortion will be viewed differently.

Kinda like how suddenly one day slaverly was legal and the next it wasnt and now 100 years later we look back and ask what the hell were they thinking.
 
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#4
#4
The point at which life starts can only be defined philosophically, not concretely
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#5
#5
NEOCON said:
Both were at the mercy of someone else and their fate was completely out of their hands.

Both could be killed just because someone who had legal authority over them felt like it.

Both were considered sub-human, less than human, and not part of the American legal system.

But if someone other than the one who had legal authority over them killed them, the convicted party could face time in prison or owe civil damages.
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What is the purpose of punishment? Is it to influence/deter certain behavior?

Will outlawing abortions eliminate abortions? Will it significantly decrease the number of abortions performed?

If abortions are outlawed, what type of environment and industry do you believe will develop to serve the demand that will still exist (and has existed since the beginning of history)?

Do you believe that individuals who have abortions are a threat to existing members of society? If so, how? If not, then how is punishing said individuals anything more than a simple an act of spite and vengeance?
 
#6
#6
NEOCON said:
My question is not about now.
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I know what you are asking. I told you under what pretenses your question, well, rather assertion would be valid.

NEOCON said:
It is about when some scientist actually pin points the day life starts.
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As Milo alluded to, this day will never happen. It is more of philosophical question rather than a scientific one.

NEOCON said:
At that point, abortion will be viewed differently.

Kinda like how suddenly one day slaverly was legal and the next it wasnt and now 100 years later we look back and ask what the hell were they thinking.
Click to expand...

No, based on the premise of my/Milo's aforementioned response.
 
#7
#7
Men's contraceptive options:
Abstinence
Condoms

Women's contraceptive options:
Abstinence
Condoms
Birth control pill
The morning after pill (debatable option if you believe life begins at the moment of conception)
Diaphragms
Spermicidal gels
The Patch
Others...

It seems that the person with the most options, should bare the most responsibility in order to prevent the need for even needing an abortion. Hell, you can be on the pill/patch and still use condoms, yet somehow, these women still end up pregnant and in need of an abortion. My issue is that irresponsible women using abortion as a form of birth control. If they were responsible, the patch/pill combined with condoms would have prevented 99.999% of these abortions to begin with.

I'm just saying. These women are not being responsible with their reproductive options.
 
#8
#8
Rasputin_Vol said:
Men's contraceptive options:
Abstinence
Condoms

Women's contraceptive options:
Abstinence
Condoms
Birth control pill
The morning after pill (debatable option if you believe life begins at the moment of conception)
Diaphragms
Spermicidal gels
The Patch
Others...

It seems that the person with the most options, should bare the most responsibility in order to prevent the need for even needing an abortion. Hell, you can be on the pill/patch and still use condoms, yet somehow, these women still end up pregnant and in need of an abortion. My issue is that irresponsible women using abortion as a form of birth control. If they were responsible, the patch/pill combined with condoms would have prevented 99.999% of these abortions to begin with.

I'm just saying. These women are not being responsible with their reproductive options.
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1. There are men's birth control options (a pill has even been developed and should be available this coming year); however, there is little to no demand and/or market for them.

2. Men can get clipped and, later, when they want children can get hooked up again.

That said, I am suspicious of anyone who is 'Pro-Life' and 'Pro-Contraceptive'. Fundamentally, I do not see how those two views can be reconciled without quite a bit of 'creative' maneuvering.
 
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#9
#9
therealUT said:
1. There are men's birth control options (a pill has even been developed and should be available this coming year); however, there is little to no demand and/or market for them.
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If my memory wasn't so bad, I'd be down for something like that.

therealUT said:
That said, I am suspicious of anyone who is 'Pro-Choice' and 'Pro-Contraceptive'. Fundamentally, I do not see how those two views can be reconciled without quite a bit of 'creative' maneuvering.
Click to expand...

You have me intrigued. Care to elaborate?
 
#11
#11
obamapunishmentposter.jpg
 
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#12
#12
therealUT said:
That said, I am suspicious of anyone who is 'Pro-Choice' and 'Pro-Contraceptive'. Fundamentally, I do not see how those two views can be reconciled without quite a bit of 'creative' maneuvering.
Click to expand...

PKT_VOL said:
You have me intrigued. Care to elaborate?
Click to expand...

If there is 'life' in a full-term fetus, there is life in the second trimester, first trimester, and in the zygot. A zygot is nothing other than a sperm attached to an egg. Scientifically, nothing external is added at that moment; therefore, there is either no soul in the zygot or there is a soul in either the egg or the sperm.

Contraception is a willful act taken in order to keep the egg and the sperm from joining (of course, there are even forms of contraception which simply keep a fertilized egg (a zygot) from attaching to the wall of the uterus), thus ultimately and voluntarily willing the death of a soul, if there is a soul in the fetus.

Contraception is a willful measure taken so that one can enjoy bodily pleasures without the consequence of having child; both contraception and abortion kill off a soul if one claims that a fetus has a soul.
 
#14
#14
San Diego Vol said:
Where is this quote from?
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Sarah Palin.

On the October 12 edition of NBC's Nightly News, correspondent Savannah Guthrie falsely suggested that Sen. Barack Obama was talking about abortion when he said: "I've got two daughters -- 9 years old and 6 years old. I'm going to teach them first of all about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby." During the broadcast, referring to comments by Gov. Sarah Palin, Guthrie reported: "Saturday in Pennsylvania, her most withering attack yet on Obama's stance on abortion." She then aired Palin saying of Obama: "He said that a woman shouldn't have to be, quote, 'punished with a baby.' " In fact, as Media Matters for America has previously documented, Obama was instead referring to sex education, not abortion, when he made his "punished with a baby" comment.

===================================

OBAMA: -- or we give them really expensive surgery and we don't spend money on the front end keeping people healthy in the first place. So, when it comes to -- when it comes specifically to HIV/AIDS, the most important prevention is education, which should include -- which should include abstinence only -- should include abstinence education and teaching that children -- teaching children, you know, that sex is not something casual. But it should also include -- it should also include other, you know, information about contraception because, look, I've got two daughters -- 9 years old and 6 years old. I'm going to teach them first of all about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby. I don't want them punished with an STD at the age of 16.

NBC's Guthrie falsely suggested Obama's "punished with a baby" comment was about abortion | Media Matters for America
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#15
#15
Good luck trying to make one of my daughters have a rapist's baby. Also, this has absolutely nothing to do with science. Scientifically, a baby can also be viewed as a parasite. We are the ones who assign meaning and define "life." This argument is about politics, spirituality, philosophy, prioritizing one life over another, and ultimately it is about imposing one's own morals and values upon others regardless of their reasons for their actions.
 
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#16
#16
therealUT said:
If there is 'life' in a full-term fetus, there is life in the second trimester, first trimester, and in the zygot. A zygot is nothing other than a sperm attached to an egg. Scientifically, nothing external is added at that moment; therefore, there is either no soul in the zygot or there is a soul in either the egg or the sperm.

Contraception is a willful act taken in order to keep the egg and the sperm from joining (of course, there are even forms of contraception which simply keep a fertilized egg (a zygot) from attaching to the wall of the uterus), thus ultimately and voluntarily willing the death of a soul, if there is a soul in the fetus.

Contraception is a willful measure taken so that one can enjoy bodily pleasures without the consequence of having child; both contraception and abortion kill off a soul if one claims that a fetus has a soul.
Click to expand...

That was a curve ball. Didn't suspect you taking the soul route.
 
#18
#18
therealUT said:
If there is 'life' in a full-term fetus, there is life in the second trimester, first trimester, and in the zygot. A zygot is nothing other than a sperm attached to an egg. Scientifically, nothing external is added at that moment; therefore, there is either no soul in the zygot or there is a soul in either the egg or the sperm.

Contraception is a willful act taken in order to keep the egg and the sperm from joining (of course, there are even forms of contraception which simply keep a fertilized egg (a zygot) from attaching to the wall of the uterus), thus ultimately and voluntarily willing the death of a soul, if there is a soul in the fetus.

Contraception is a willful measure taken so that one can enjoy bodily pleasures without the consequence of having child; both contraception and abortion kill off a soul if one claims that a fetus has a soul.
Click to expand...

Question: is there fire in a match?
 
#19
#19
First off, this thread is asking about when that day comes... and it will come.

I understand that if I asked the question is slavery wrong at it was 1840 I would be getting alot of the same "there is always the north" kinda answers.

I am asking about what happens once life is determined...and it will be. There is no way as science advances they will be able to not decipher when life truly starts and when that day comes how will we look back on the 50plus million babies that have been murdered.

That is my question.

I thought it was pretty clear.

Guess no one wants to admit we are going to be looked back upon as another dark part of American history.
 
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#22
#22
RespectTradition said:
Bad analogy, but...

match = egg
air = sperm
fire = soul

possible?
Click to expand...

Anything is possible; however, I see it as not very plausible. Plants and animals could have souls; there is no proof of this, though. If one day a plant spoke up and said, "Hey, stop harvesting me and my family," then there is a case where one would have to start looking at the world in a completely different manner. Once a fetus speaks up and says, "Hey, I am alive and have a soul," then I will change my stance on abortion.

However, for persons that are pro-life, they are erring on the side that says that a fetus does have a soul, though there is no proof (interesting that among the pro-life group are also the most avid hunters; apparently, no proof that deer have souls is sufficient to say that they do not have souls while no proof that a fetus has a soul is insufficient). For those that are pro-life and pro-contraception, they need to find an argument in which to distinguish. If they say that they believe that a fetus has a soul, although there is no proof, how do they respond if I say that it is just as likely that an egg or a sperm has a soul? For both conclusions there is a supreme lack of sufficient proof or evidence; neither the egg, the sperm, the zygot, nor the fetus can speak for itself in any way, shape, or form. They simply pick a convenient stopping point in order to continue to engage in the lifestyle they want to engage in (which is consequence free sex).
 
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#24
#24
NEOCON said:
First off, this thread is asking about when that day comes... and it will come.

I understand that if I asked the question is slavery wrong at it was 1840 I would be getting alot of the same "there is always the north" kinda answers.

I am asking about what happens once life is determined...and it will be. There is no way as science advances they will be able to not decipher when life truly starts and when that day comes how will we look back on the 50plus million babies that have been murdered.

That is my question.

I thought it was pretty clear.

Guess no one wants to admit we are going to be looked back upon as another dark part of American history.
Click to expand...

There will be a day when Americans look back on our time and talk about us as if we were moral midgets. The same way we look back on slavery, Indian genocide, and colonialism today. They will judge us for murdering our children, for murdering children in foreign lands, for senseless wars, for outrageous budgets, for imprisoning those who hurt no one.
 
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