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[LouderVol]

Well, if you think supporting Ukraine is a waste of time and money, you similarly did not support the trillions of dollars spent by our country to win the Cold War with USSR. To me, spending our money - not our blood - to stop Putin's land-grab is money very well spent. Most American people agree, and our politicians have (thus far) followed suit.

You're right about the kick-the-can-down-the-road situation with the deficit. Seems to me a Presidential candidate might earn your vote if he/she made a campaign promise to balance it.

I was 2 when the wall fell, I wasn't supporting much of anything. but to your point, yeah I wouldn't have supported our constant involvement in other people's wars. Korea is the only one we "won", Vietnam we lost, but they are now pretty close to us relations wise.

If it was someone who hadn't been president or a congressperson before, yeah I probably would support them. Because non of the politicians are actually going to follow through on it. Obama was going to fix the Bush spending, Trump was gong to fix the Obama spending, Biden was going to fix the Trump spending. and those are just the ones in my "adult" lifetime. There is absolutely zero reason to believe any of them will actually address before it becomes a critical item. even this latest kicking of the can came down to the final moments. I would feel a lot better if there was some comprehensive plan of kicking the can and we were sticking to it. Instead its just a political football both sides take turns caring about, all the while the problem gets worse and worse.

 

[hog88]

They have much, much smaller populations?

And those charts are not just .gov spending our tax dollars on HC, it's all spending and mostly not involving the .gov. Red herring.

 

[volinbham]

But Janet Yellen disagrees!!

it was all fun and games when interest rates are zero but when we borrow now at 4% those pesky interest payments start to add up ($745 billion projected for 2024; nearly 11% of the budget)

 

[NorthDallas40]

it was all fun and games when interest rates are zero but when we borrow now at 4% those pesky interest payments start to add up ($745 billion projected for 2024; nearly 11% of the budget)

Yep exactly. Inflation kills the entire country’s economic health. The money you have buys less for everyone including the government and it takes away their primary mechanism to deal with it by issuing more debt. I mean they can issue it … but it’s payday lender interest rates comparatively speaking

 

[Septic]

not to derail this into a HC debate but just one example of why we can't find common ground is how you pay for insurance and what insurance is. Switzerland gets mentioned often as one of the best but it's all private insurance. That would never fly here because some people want single payer (govt). Singapore is another highly cited system but it requires more skin in the game than much of US insurance.

the factions all have their favorite "solution" and demonize the other solutions (just like everything else in the country)

Australia has a great model. Public availability with options to buy your way to the front, like a Disney Fast Pass.

Until American's get sick of getting screwed by a for profit healthcare model we will ALL keep taking it up the ...

 

[hog88]

Australia has a great model. Public availability with options to buy your way to the front, like a Disney Fast Pass.

Until American's get sick of getting screwed by a for profit healthcare model we will ALL keep taking it up the ...

My Aussie friends will disagree with you about how great their system is, access to healthcare through the public system is abysmal. Yes it costs them nothing out of pocket but wait times just might kill ya.

 

[volinbham]

Australia has a great model. Public availability with options to buy your way to the front, like a Disney Fast Pass.

Until American's get sick of getting screwed by a for profit healthcare model we will ALL keep taking it up the ...

my point is that the countries that get pointed to as "the best" all have different systems and expecting people in this country to aggregate around one system is a pipe dream - any number of systems could work but we have diffused decision making power so completely that the vested interests will never converge.

it's endemic to our American way of decision making and given the alternative of centralizing decision making power to force a single approach I'll stick with the negative externalities of diffused power

 

[LouderVol]

The costs are shown per capita.

We are getting raped in the US over healthcare costs and as he noted, our outcomes aren't better.

It amazes me that with all of the divisiveness of US politics that this isn't something everyone can find common ground on.

and you know what has made that markedly worse? Getting our government involved. Its about the one place you can use "Thanks Obama" un-ironically.

throwing more money at it has proven to not be the solution. See the chart on per capita out of pocket spending.
How has U.S. spending on healthcare changed over time? - Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker

costs were actually decreasing prior to 2012, and then takes a noticeable turn up in 2014 after Obama effed us all.

Covid was another example of government interference increasing costs. in 2020 you actually saw a big decrease, with the health care system refusing patients, and then a sharp increase in 2021 that actually raised us even higher than we would have been otherwise. Thanks Trump.

 

[LouderVol]

Australia has a great model. Public availability with options to buy your way to the front, like a Disney Fast Pass.

Until American's get sick of getting screwed by a for profit healthcare model we will ALL keep taking it up the ...

we spend (tax payer funded) double on health care already compared to Australia's entire budget. the $ amount isn't the issue.

 

[Septic]

My Aussie friends will disagree with you about how great their system is, access to healthcare through the public system is abysmal. Yes it costs them nothing out of pocket but wait times just might kill ya.

My Aussie friends would disagree with yours, but they by their way to the front.

 

[Septic]

we spend (tax payer funded) double on health care already compared to Australia's entire budget. the $ amount isn't the issue.

Of course we do, that's the problem. It's paid into a for profit system...

Now do the math on a per capita basis.

 

[hog88]

My Aussie friends would disagree with yours, but they by their way to the front.

LOL

Of course opting out of their "medicare system" and using the private system you get much quicker and better care, even my friends will agree to that.

 

[Septic]

LOL

Of course opting out of their "medicare system" and using the private system you get much quicker and better care, even my friends will agree to that.

It's not an opt out, that's not possible - like a fast pass through the private market.

Maybe you need to go back and talk to your friends, clearly they haven't given you good intel.

"LOL"

 

[hog88]

It's not an opt out, that's not possible - like a fast pass through the private market.

Maybe you need to go back and talk to your friends, clearly they haven't given you good intel.

"LOL"

Yes it is an opt out, they are opting not to use the public system and instead use private insurance. There are providers that only serve those not using their public system. Maybe it's you who should check with your friends, i can ask mine tonight since they are visiting now.

 

[VOLS INC.]

It's not an opt out, that's not possible - like a fast pass through the private market.

Maybe you need to go back and talk to your friends, clearly they haven't given you good intel.

"LOL"

It sounds good.

Except for the fact that white people in America have oppressed black people for literally thousands of years. To create a system that allows wealthy white men to jump in front of all the poor minorities that built this country would only further feed the problem of white supremacy in America.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Above is why a fast-pass model won’t work here. That narrative will play over and over and over again.

 

[Septic]

Yes it is an opt out, they are opting not to use the public system and instead use private insurance. There are providers that only serve those not using their public system. Maybe it's you who should check with your friends, i can ask mine tonight since they are visiting now.

Ehh, maybe you're right - I don't care enough to argue about the nuances of a better system we'll never have.

Ask them if they'd rather have what they have versus what we have.

 

[LouderVol]

Of course we do, that's the problem. It's paid into a for profit system...

Now do the math on a per capita basis.

what does the per capita say differently? I thought your whole point was that we were spending too much. I agree, I just disagree with the way to fix it.

My point is that getting the government involved is not the solution. history shows the further we get away from a true private health care system the worse it gets. look at what it looks like for people with only Medicare/aid insurance and what options they have vs a privately funded option.

most of our hospitals are actually non-profits. only about 1/4 are for profit.

medicare/medicaid reimbursement rates actually set a lot of prices that everyone else has to deal with. yay 0.001% of the population doesn't have to spend 10k on their prescription, but now everyone else has to pay $100 for the doctor to give you an advil.

 

[hog88]

Ehh, maybe you're right - I don't care enough to argue about the nuances of a better system we'll never have.

Ask them if they'd rather have what they have versus what we have.

I have. Their last visit here before this one was 2019, their oldest son broke his wrist and went to the ER. They were amazed that they were in and out within a couple of hours, they didn't like the bill but had travel insurance so they were only out a couple hundred bucks. They said had this been in Australia they would have been in the ER all day and if he needed surgery the bone would have probably healed crooked before that was scheduled and have to be rebroken. That happened to their younger son and his fingers. They like that for routine exams and stuff there is no charge but if it's something serious the wait might kill ya (I didn't make that up earlier).

 

[Orangeburst]

progressivism is dying
gonna be a bumpy ride and wake up call
watch the dems go after military spending after the war is over

 

[Septic]

I have. Their last visit here before this one was 2019, their oldest son broke his wrist and went to the ER. They were amazed that they were in and out within a couple of hours, they didn't like the bill but had travel insurance so they were only out a couple hundred bucks. They said had this been in Australia they would have been in the ER all day and if he needed surgery the bone would have probably healed crooked before that was scheduled and have to be rebroken. That happened to their younger son and his fingers. They like that for routine exams and stuff there is no charge but if it's something serious the wait might kill ya (I didn't make that up earlier).

If you say so. My anecdotal conversations with a client of mine who moved here for a year were appalled at the cost versus the benefit. They explained that emergency surgery in AUS was prompt but elective surgeries would result in an unwanted delay - prompting them to buy the private option to the front.

Nonetheless, until America solves the healthcare cost issue - any notion of American exceptionalism is complete BS. The richest country on the planet shouldn't have fully employed people going bankrupt because they can't afford basic health care. Healthcare shouldn't need to be tied to employment to be "affordable."

I'll hang up and listen.

 

[Orangeburst]

If you say so. My anecdotal conversations with a client of mine who moved here for a year were appalled at the cost versus the benefit. They explained that emergency surgery in AUS was prompt but elective surgeries would result in an unwanted delay - prompting them to buy the private option to the front.

Nonetheless, until America solves the healthcare cost issue - any notion of American exceptionalism is complete BS. The richest country on the planet shouldn't have fully employed people going bankrupt because they can't afford basic health care. Healthcare shouldn't need to be tied to employment to be "affordable."

I'll hang up and listen.

between socialized HC and the war in Ukraine, you sound more like a Bidenete every day

 

[Septic]

between socialized HC and the war in Ukraine, you sound more like a Bidenete every day

You sound like a guy that has the luxury of depending on an employer to subsidize the cost of healthcare.

 

[hog88]

If you say so. My anecdotal conversations with a client of mine who moved here for a year were appalled at the cost versus the benefit. They explained that emergency surgery in AUS was prompt but elective surgeries would result in an unwanted delay - prompting them to buy the private option to the front.

Nonetheless, until America solves the healthcare cost issue - any notion of American exceptionalism is complete BS. The richest country on the planet shouldn't have fully employed people going bankrupt because they can't afford basic health care. Healthcare shouldn't need to be tied to employment to be "affordable."

I'll hang up and listen.

I 100% agree with the bold. Health Insurance shouldn't be tied to employment, we should move away from employer provided health insurance.

HC providers should be able to refuse service to those that can't pay.
Individuals should be able to write off 100% of their health insurance premiums to help offset purchasing plans on the market.
Health savings accounts should be pre-tax (might already be) and employers should be allowed to but not required to contribute.

I think most people could get by with a what we used to call catastrophic plan, basically a high deductible plan if they had some education about them and encouraged to save.

 

[LouderVol]

If you say so. My anecdotal conversations with a client of mine who moved here for a year were appalled at the cost versus the benefit. They explained that emergency surgery in AUS was prompt but elective surgeries would result in an unwanted delay - prompting them to buy the private option to the front.

Nonetheless, until America solves the healthcare cost issue - any notion of American exceptionalism is complete BS. The richest country on the planet shouldn't have fully employed people going bankrupt because they can't afford basic health care. Healthcare shouldn't need to be tied to employment to be "affordable."

I'll hang up and listen.

what fully employed person is going bankrupt from basic health care?

I mean I guess it depends on what you mean by basic. I seriously doubt too many people are going broke going in for the routine check ups and minor care procedures or seeing a specialist thats one thing. If you mean life saving care from extremely complicated diseases/cancers, or dealing with the consequences of a life of terrible health decisions that is a completely different thing.

I am not going to think we need to fix the health care of a nation if the main failure is the people taking care of themselves.

 

[volinbham]

If you say so. My anecdotal conversations with a client of mine who moved here for a year were appalled at the cost versus the benefit. They explained that emergency surgery in AUS was prompt but elective surgeries would result in an unwanted delay - prompting them to buy the private option to the front.

Nonetheless, until America solves the healthcare cost issue - any notion of American exceptionalism is complete BS. The richest country on the planet shouldn't have fully employed people going bankrupt because they can't afford basic health care. Healthcare shouldn't need to be tied to employment to be "affordable."

I'll hang up and listen.

not what American exceptionalism refers to