Vermont single payer health insurance

#101
#101
utgibbs said:
Germs and horses, two oceans separating us from Japan and Germany, oil and coal in Appalachia & Texas, the Civil War, many viccisitudes of history and fate....
Click to expand...

yes i'm arguing it's not.

capitalism had nothing to do with it?
 
#103
#103
I think what I see with most people who chime in on the issue is seeing part of the problem, and being quick to try and pin all of it on one or two things. We among the best quality medical treatment in the world, probably the best. That is true. But even when you take out "skewed stats" (infant mortality among immigrants, etc.) our outcomes are still pretty poor, and this is not at all limited to any one community, race or income bracket. Everybody is seeing their own parts of the problem, put them together and you get a better idea of the bigger overall picture.

One part is improving the care system so that more people have access to it at more reasonable rates and are less likely to get black-balled on treatment, this is where I could pick bits and pieces of Obama-care I'd like to see stay. Other parts of it are just stupid.

The other part lies on people to take care of themselves. There needs to be adequate education of how they should take care of themselves, but once we're past that it's on them. Environmental factors may play a part here, too.
 
#105
#105
kptvol said:
You've once again intentionally missed my point so you can hang onto a more defensible position. Pathetic.

My post wasn't discussing our heart disease rates.
Click to expand...

You haven't proven anything, kpt. If anything, my friend's mother's broken leg in Paris anecdote gives your premise a dirt nap before you even begin to amass data.

Meanwhile, you try to play the race card, but that doesn't work, because you can separate out the white majority in the US, and you STILL have worse health statistics than the NHS systems in Europe counting every ethnicity represented.

Meanwhile, you still can't confront the 800lbs gorilla:

Better health, less cost.
 
#106
#106
kptvol said:
I think if you go back and read a few more posts it'll be in full.
Click to expand...

Read the last half dozen or so... There are bits I'd nitpick with you about, but generally we're good. Frivolous law-suits aside, the poor level of care people take of themselves here plays a huge part in the cost of healthcare here, and it is true that people across western Europe generally take better care of themselves than we do, significantly lower rates of obesity, heart disease, type II diabetes, etc.
 
#107
#107
wait you aren't implying those differences might be related to diet are you? no never. must be because our healthcare stinks despite 90% of all medical advances in the world coming from this country in the past 40 years.
 
#108
#108
droski said:
who gets black balled on treatment?
Click to expand...

Anybody who was with an HMO, I can give you any number of examples of insurance dropping them based on BS "pre-existing" conditions as soon as somebody needs to make a large claim, or refusing care to people who need it.

Earlier in this thread (or another?) I gave my own personal anecdote about being shuffled through by insurance and not receiving proper care.
 
#109
#109
utgibbs said:
Meanwhile, you try to play the race card, but that doesn't work, because you can separate out the white majority in the US, and you STILL have worse health statistics than the NHS systems in Europe counting every ethnicity represented.
Click to expand...

I would still like to see you cite where the infant mortality rate among white Americans is materially higher than it is in Great Britain.

The overall infant mortality rate is 6.9 in America and 4.62 in the UK.

The infant mortality rate for African Americans is 14.1 and for Mexico it is over 17.

Those two factors lead me to believe that the infant mortality rate for white Americans is well under 4.
 
#111
#111
utgibbs said:
You haven't proven anything, kpt. If anything, my friend's mother's broken leg in Paris anecdote gives your premise a dirt nap before you even begin to amass data.

Meanwhile, you try to play the race card, but that doesn't work, because you can separate out the white majority in the US, and you STILL have worse health statistics than the NHS systems in Europe counting every ethnicity represented.

Meanwhile, you still can't confront the 800lbs gorilla:

Better health, less cost.
Click to expand...

Well, if you've got a friend with a mother, I guess I'll just shut up and go back to treating patients. But seriously, though. I do have patients to see now.

And if you provide me with some nice changes inspired by Europe that we can make in our prenatal care that will reduce the incidence of premature births, I'd be glad to hear them.
 
#112
#112
droski said:
wait you aren't implying those differences might be related to diet are you? no never. must be because our healthcare stinks despite 90% of all medical advances in the world coming from this country in the past 40 years.
Click to expand...

No wai!

We've got fatasses across this country and it's hurting our health outcomes?!

I've been saying this all along. haha

One could only speculate, but I'd bet dropping obesity rates here to what we see in Europe could possibly outweigh the cost imposed on the system by phony malpractice suits over the next twenty years.
 
#113
#113
milohimself said:
Read the last half dozen or so... There are bits I'd nitpick with you about, but generally we're good. Frivolous law-suits aside, the poor level of care people take of themselves here plays a huge part in the cost of healthcare here, and it is true that people across western Europe generally take better care of themselves than we do, significantly lower rates of obesity, heart disease, type II diabetes, etc.
Click to expand...

so all the data in the world is at people's fingertips but they're suddenly going to get healthier because we have a single-payer system? Replacing personal responsibility with this grand gov't idea is what gets me as stupid and ridiculous. If people aren't doing it already then there's little to lead me to believe anything will change except my taxes, choice and quality.
 
#114
#114
milohimself said:
Anybody who was with an HMO, I can give you any number of examples of insurance dropping them based on BS "pre-existing" conditions as soon as somebody needs to make a large claim, or refusing care to people who need it.

Earlier in this thread (or another?) I gave my own personal anecdote about being shuffled through by insurance and not receiving proper care.
Click to expand...

you can still go to the emergency room no? they can't dump you based on preexisting conditions if you told them about it beforehand or if you are part of an employer plan.

they determined you didn't have a problem. that isn't the same thing as saying as not getting proper care. i doubt you would found it different in a socialized medicine country. probably far worse.
 
#115
#115
therealUT said:
I would still like to see you cite where the infant mortality rate among white Americans is materially higher than it is in Great Britain.

The overall infant mortality rate is 6.9 in America and 4.62 in the UK.

The infant mortality rate for African Americans is 14.1 and for Mexico it is over 17.

Those two factors lead me to believe that the infant mortality rate for white Americans is well under 4.
Click to expand...

I was working from memory, but I already cited two US based data surveys which show I'm correct. If I spent time, I would find many more.

I assume, having now proved I am right, you will continue to insist I am wrong, which would be about par for the intellectual discourse here.
 
#116
#116
utgibbs said:
I assume, having now proved I am right, you will continue to insist I am wrong, which would be about par for the intellectual discourse here.
Click to expand...

You just proved our points for us. That's discourse, baby.
 
#117
#117
droski said:
wait you aren't implying those differences might be related to diet are you? no never. must be because our healthcare stinks despite 90% of all medical advances in the world coming from this country in the past 40 years.
Click to expand...

I'd like to see this data.

Moreover, I bet if it is true, the lion's share of that comes from public finances.

:hi:
 
#118
#118
#119
#119
#120
#120
if the rates were all based on the same criteria you might have a point
 
#121
#121
utvolpj said:
so all the data in the world is at people's fingertips but they're suddenly going to get healthier because we have a single-payer system? Replacing personal responsibility with this grand gov't idea is what gets me as stupid and ridiculous. If people aren't doing it already then there's little to lead me to believe anything will change except my taxes, choice and quality.
Click to expand...

I've never advocated single-payer or government-run systems.

Comparing the outcomes between the two are difficult, since literally every other major highly developed nation on the planet has some sort of single-payer or socialized health care system.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.gadling.com/media/2007/07/healthcareworldbig.jpg
 
#122
#122
it's also difficult because the US won't allow their HC system to actually work
 
#123
#123
droski said:
you can still go to the emergency room no? they can't dump you based on preexisting conditions if you told them about it beforehand or if you are part of an employer plan.

they determined you didn't have a problem. that isn't the same thing as saying as not getting proper care. i doubt you would found it different in a socialized medicine country. probably far worse.
Click to expand...
They didn't dump me from the plan, I'm still on it. But they refused to make any sort of recommendation. It was severe chest pains, which continued. Even after I specifically asked, they wouldn't do more anything than take an EKG and send me on my way. I turned around and went to PSU to see a doctor (tuition and state funded) and they recommended me to some therapy which has since helped a great deal, something I could not get my HMO to do.
 
#124
#124
kptvol said:
You just proved our points for us. That's discourse, baby.
Click to expand...

I just proved your points? That we have an abyssmal racist divide in our health care system? That even when we take away those dirty "ethnicities" which drive our health care numbers down ---

we still have worse infant mortality than all of Britain including every single one of their racial minorities.....

And that's just one example.

Yes, you are actually my alter ego. How else could I prove my points so deliciously than pretend to be a critic, but always talk myself into defending my opponent's position?

By the way, the racial divide in health care is both shocking and disgusting. We should all feel physically sick (pun intended) looking at these numbers.
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top