Vols progress

[youcancallmeAl]

Banks is coming back next year…unless a HC position materializes. Let’s see what he does with some healthy talent and recalibrate.

So, you're willing to settle for anything less than championships? Shame on you for being rational!!!

 

[VolMack——————$]

Dude, Kiffin had to start TWO undersized walk ons (the Sullin twins) on the Oline and an undersized former walk on at linebacker in (Nick Riveiz) in 2009 because of Fulmer's lack of recruiting success late in his career! Im sorry but there was NO excuse for a coach of Fulmer's stature and reputation at a program like ours to be in that kind of roster management situation! That was on Fulmer! I dont know how good Fulmer's last recruiting class would've really been but to be in that kind deficit to begin with was inexcusable!

Didn’t read what you had to say lol

 

[sjt18]

And what happened on that fourth down fake attempt? BANKS DEFENSE STOPPED THE ATTEMPT SHORT OF THE LINE TO GAIN AND GOT OFF THE FIELD WITH ZERO POINTS ALLOWED!!!! That you would count that against Banks instead of in his favor tells us all we need to know about your biases.

Nope. My "bias" is that I would LOVE for him to be an elite DC. Just not seeing it. UT stopped that play. That play was STUPID on the part of Clemson. BTW, Banks isn't the ST's coach. That's Ekeler.

Man, why can't you just give this attack on Banks a rest and let the rest of VN enjoy our bowl win and great season for at least a few days? What a killjoy you are.

Because I can both enjoy success and have a constant hunger for a higher level of success. It was a great season... that could have been greater if the D had not had an inexplicably bad collapse vs USCe. But that wasn't the only failure. Just the only one that the O could not overcome.

 

[sjt18]

So, you're willing to settle for anything less than championships? Shame on you for being rational!!!

That's stupid. @butchna is not the kind of fan that would ever agree with what you're arguing.

 

[sjt18]

Banks is coming back next year…unless a HC position materializes. Let’s see what he does with some healthy talent and recalibrate.

Hopefully he gets better along with the whole D. I am concerned that better player talent will cover up a coaching talent issue until it costs the Vols when playing UGA/Bama et al.

It is so weird. I haven't written him off yet you have these sensitive "fans" all up in arms because I am not buying him as the answer. UT needs an elite DC to compliment Heupel.

 

[youcancallmeAl]

That's stupid. @butchna is not the kind of fan that would ever agree with what you're arguing.

You speak for him, do ya?

 

[youcancallmeAl]

I haven't written him off yet you have these sensitive "fans" all up in arms because I am not buying him as the answer.

If you're talking about me, I never said I thought he was the answer, nor did I object if you said he wasn't. You said he didn't do a good job in the bowl and last season. I say he did. I further wondered why you just have to rain on our post season parade so soon after the great bowl win. We have an entire off-season to get to all things Vols. Can't you wait a while to serve your vendetta?

 

[sjt18]

He was good enough in 11 out of 13 in year two after inheriting a dumpster fire on defense.

Eleven of 13? Pitt was not a great performance. It looked better at the time than it was. That was before we knew how anemic they would ultimately be on O. UF was not great. A pretty bad QB had a career day against Banks. He didn't stop Bama and Bama wasn't as good or as talented on O or at WR as they've been of late. UGA went prevent O to keep UT's O off the field. They were doing whatever they wanted against Banks. Mizzou's QB made Banks and the D look foolish and they were a pretty awful offense. USCe obviously was awful. Clemson drove the ball up and down the field all day and couldn't finish.

Not sure what you do in life or your experiences. But statistical trends lead to results. In my business, learning to read trends and anticipate failure is worth many millions of dollars. Being unable to stop opponents is a leading indicator/trend that the D will give up points and lose games for you. You want to ignore those things and hang on to some kind of vain belief that everything will be "fine". I just don't think that way.

That isn't just good enough, it's excellent.

Dude. There is no one aside from the most self-deluded fan that thinks UT played "excellent" defense this year.

And it gives him something to build on. It's obvious the weakness of his defense was the secondary. He deserves criticism for how poorly they played at times this season, especially against the cocks. But it was YEAR TWO of a rebuild. Why in the world do you expect more than that from a coach in YEAR TWO of a rebuild???

I expect a coach to get all the potential out of unit. Be honest with yourself and compare Heupel and Banks in year 2. UT doesn't have less talent in the secondary than dozens of teams that had better pass defense.

If you want to see championships at UT then the Vols need to pair Heupel's O with a DC who is at least close to that level.

And if you want or expect something less than championships then really we don't have a discussion... we're just not looking at it in the same way.

 

[VolFanNC09]

a huge part of the progress has been our OL play. I found this nugget interesting in the 24/7 article last week.

Winning Orange Bowl fittingly ‘perfect’ Tennessee finale for Darnell Wright

Wright credited Tennessee offensive line coach Glen Elarbee for his role in his improvement over the past two seasons.

“He’s meant everything,” Wright said. “I’d say, if I could explain it, it’d be like my first two years playing it was really just raw, just raw really playing, not knowing exactly what’s going on, not knowing reading the defense – just surviving off of athleticism or off of just instincts. I feel like Coach Elarbee has taught me the game and broke the game down to me so much to now,.....

What I took from this is Pruitt's OL coach was just bad and Elarbee is a big reason for the improved OL play. I hope we keep Elarbee a long time.

 

[sjt18]

If you're talking about me, I never said I thought he was the answer, nor did I object if you said he wasn't. You said he didn't do a good job in the bowl and last season. I say he did. I further wondered why you just have to rain on our post season parade so soon after the great bowl win. We have an entire off-season to get to all things Vols. Can't you wait a while to serve your vendetta?

See its that kind of "Nancy" language that belies your claims. I love ever win UT gets... pretty or ugly. And yeah, if you think he did a "good job" while Clemson with a true Fr QB marched up and down the field then shot themselves in the foot... we just have a different standard for "good". There were games where he looked really good. UK and LSU were two very good defensive performances. But UT needs a DC that can put it together every week... not just once in a while.

UT has scored under 25 points 4 times in Heupel's first two years. That's the divide in the SEC between the #7 and #8 scoring D... the "average". They've allowed more than 25 twelve times... 46% of the time his performances were "below average". Three other games the opponent scored 24 points.

That's not a "good job" or "excellent". I've graded that an "incomplete"... but it definitely is not a great result.

 

[sjt18]

You speak for him, do ya?

I speak for a LOT of experience locking horns with Butchna. He's a lot of things but he's not a guy satisfied with "good".

 

[Butch s]

I'm not... and he's not. All coaches have to be judged in the context of their time and competition. What Heupel did the last two years with what he had to work with is better than anything Fulmer ever did. In fact, Majors took over a weak program and made it a contender. Fulmer was set up and stumbled into a set of coordinators who carried him.

Sorry for your handicap man

 

[Butch s]

Wrong!! Fulmer couldn't do nothing without Cutcliffe!!! I will take Heupel over Fulmer any day!!! If Heupel had his talent he would win at least 3 championship. No time for Fulmer!

152-52 national championship? Then what

 

[Butch s]

He wasn’t the best, but he’s the most accomplished. He inherited the best situation by far (by Machiavellian means). He also left it in worse shape than he found it.

No way to gauge who is best except wins and losses. That is why you play the game. What UT coach has a better record ?

 

[butchna]

a huge part of the progress has been our OL play. I found this nugget interesting in the 24/7 article last week.

Winning Orange Bowl fittingly ‘perfect’ Tennessee finale for Darnell Wright

Wright credited Tennessee offensive line coach Glen Elarbee for his role in his improvement over the past two seasons.

“He’s meant everything,” Wright said. “I’d say, if I could explain it, it’d be like my first two years playing it was really just raw, just raw really playing, not knowing exactly what’s going on, not knowing reading the defense – just surviving off of athleticism or off of just instincts. I feel like Coach Elarbee has taught me the game and broke the game down to me so much to now,.....

What I took from this is Pruitt's OL coach was just bad and Elarbee is a big reason for the improved OL play. I hope we keep Elarbee a long time.

I stumped for Friend to get a fair shot as OL coach…as I did for Mahoney and Wells before him. This was mostly in response to that segment of our fanbase who felt that the only solution was Sam Pittman. There are multiple programs who won NC’s and developed NFL big uglies and none of them ever employed the guy. My position on OL coach has always been they can either coach or they can’t. There’s no superior scheming, just being able to teach the blocking that works for a scheme and get the behemoths to buy in. Do that long enough at a certain level and the herds will gather. Do it long enough at that level at an elite program and you get the recruiting classes Sam Pittman pulled. Ellarbee is currently in the middle of those two imo.

 

[FollowTheLeader]

Are you that dense? Yes. UT won. And it also lost 2 games. Hopefully the goal is to always say which elements of your program are weak and strengthen them.

No bias other than you don't like them. Maybe you for some reason are pro-Banks. Or maybe you just don't have the honesty and stomach to look at weaknesses honestly.

The SAME flaw kept tripping UT up this year. Sometimes the O compensated. Sometimes it didn't. That flaw leads right back to Banks no matter how you break it down.

.......good talk.

 

[youcancallmeAl]

Dude. There is no one aside from the most self-deluded fan that thinks UT played "excellent" defense this year.

I said Banks gave us an excellent performance this year, I did not say we had an excellent defense. Those are two different things, and not mutually exclusive, which you could glean from my posts if you read them.

Eleven of 13? Pitt was not a great performance.

I never said any of our defensive performances were great. That is your word, not mine. I said that 11 of 13 were good enough. And they were. Like you, I'm hoping that all defensive efforts next year are good enough. Unlike you, I don't expect they will all be great, just good enough.

Being unable to stop opponents is a leading indicator/trend that the D will give up points and lose games for you. You want to ignore those things and hang on to some kind of vain belief that everything will be "fine". I just don't think that way.

You are putting your words in my mouth and then arguing against them. Here's another example. I never said that everything will be fine. Not even close. I said Banks did an excellent job THIS year. I said nothing about next year. The D will have a lot of new players, both from the portal and recruiting, and will lose some players. It would be stupid to make predictions of the quality of the D in the future, IMO.

I expect a coach to get all the potential out of unit. Be honest with yourself and compare Heupel and Banks in year 2.

How do you know he didn't get all the potential out of his unit? Because others had better pass protection? Well, how did they do against the run? Heupel is the coach of the year. Comparing others to him means that NO ONE can measure up to your standards if anything less than a Heupel quality of coach will do for you. That's just unrealistic.

And, yes, of course I want championships. Who doesn't? The difference between you and me is I don't complain about my team right after it won the Orange Bowl and posted an 11-2 record in year two of a rebuild. I like to celebrate that kind of success. Why can't you? Because anything short of a nattie is not a success, even if in year two? That's a hell of an altitude to fly at, mister. Not even Saban can do that.

It's fine to expect the best out of people. It's not fine to ignore the environment they're working in, and as a result say that a person failed when he actually succeeded.

In my business, learning to read trends and anticipate failure is worth many millions of dollars.

In my business, we measure success on the bottom line, in context with the business environment. And we don't throw trash at people when they are good enough for 11-2 against all odds.

 

[Butch s]

I'm not... and he's not. All coaches have to be judged in the context of their time and competition. What Heupel did the last two years with what he had to work with is better than anything Fulmer ever did. In fact, Majors took over a weak program and made it a contender. Fulmer was set up and stumbled into a set of coordinators who carried him.

152-52 national championship / 18-8 orange bowl ??????????

 

[Butch s]

I'm not... and he's not. All coaches have to be judged in the context of their time and competition. What Heupel did the last two years with what he had to work with is better than anything Fulmer ever did. In fact, Majors took over a weak program and made it a contender. Fulmer was set up and stumbled into a set of coordinators who carried him.

Contender for what Johnny 116-82-8
Johnny won 57% of games
Fulmer won 75%

 

[youcancallmeAl]

See its that kind of "Nancy" language that belies your claims. I love ever win UT gets... pretty or ugly. And yeah, if you think he did a "good job" while Clemson with a true Fr QB marched up and down the field then shot themselves in the foot... we just have a different standard for "good". There were games where he looked really good. UK and LSU were two very good defensive performances. But UT needs a DC that can put it together every week... not just once in a while.

UT has scored under 25 points 4 times in Heupel's first two years. That's the divide in the SEC between the #7 and #8 scoring D... the "average". They've allowed more than 25 twelve times... 46% of the time his performances were "below average". Three other games the opponent scored 24 points.

That's not a "good job" or "excellent". I've graded that an "incomplete"... but it definitely is not a great result.

You NEVER take context into account. That means you don't live in the real world. AGAIN, this was YEAR TWO of a rebuild. Any fair minded person would take that into account before concluding that a coordinator should be stained with the critique that he is inconsistent or that his performance should be singled out for the hot seat. And you cannot realistically expect anyone else to succeed at Heup's level just because Heup did what he has done. That isn't the real world, either.

 

[Butch s]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts

 

[omghulkhands]

Is there no “points allowed per possession” metric?

It’d really help better understand our defensive performances relative to the context, which is, our opponents get a lot more TOP and possessions in general than the average, due to our offensive scheme, so comparing our points allowed metric to the average is bad data analysis IMO

 

[sjt18]

You NEVER take context into account.

Well. Yeah. I do. That's why I'm arguing against delusional statements like Banks produced an "excellent" D this year or was "good enough" or that "good enough"... is actually "good enough".

That means you don't live in the real world. AGAIN, this was YEAR TWO of a rebuild.

So? That's your excuse now? Your "real world" non-senses is just that... Non-sense- an attempt to poison the debate.

I don't expect him to be at UGA's. I don't deny that UT needs more talent. I'm just not going to close my eyes and ignore what the inconsistency that produced a few good games, some "OK" games, and then a bunch of games when the D just wasn't good.

The bottom line is that great coaches, coach great. They get the most out of what they have. You see weaknesses addressed. You see synergy. You see schemes and playcalling compensating for other deficiencies.

Any fair minded person would take that into account before concluding that a coordinator should be stained with the critique that he is inconsistent or that his performance should be singled out for the hot seat.

Now you have resorted to hyperbole (another word for lying). His performance over the first two years has been inconsistent. Even if you support him... any honest review of what he's done cannot deny that he's been inconsistent. Where did I say he should be "stained"... whatever that's supposed to mean? I specifically have not put him on a hot seat.

I have said two basic things. He is not on par or really even close to Heupel on O. Heupel took a really bad situation and created the nation's best O. Banks at best has been inconsistent with some REALLY bad performances and some good ones.

Second... that I'm not buying yet. Said the same thing about Jones when many were deluding themselves into NOT believing what they were seeing when it came to his inability to develop players or coach on gameday. Banks has NOT shown to this point that he's what UT needs in a DC to win championships. If you don't have the stomach to admit that to yourself... that's really not my problem. It most certainly doesn't mean that I am the one detached from reality.

And you cannot realistically expect anyone else to succeed at Heup's level just because Heup did what he has done. That isn't the real world, either.

If you want to win championships that is EXACTLY what you have to expect. "At" his level is subjective... but you have to have someone who is a top tier DC. Banks has not shown that he is. And yeah, that's "real world". That's where the teams UT is chasing are operating and have operated. That's where Clemson was operating before their coaching turnover. That's where LSU is headed.

So far, UT's success has been primarily because of Heupel's O. The D has to catch up.

That is the "real world" of elite programs. Maybe that's the difference between us? That's where I believe the Vols belong. Maybe you're just satisfied with being an also ran.

 

[allen phillips]

Stupid post

Stupid post

In his day Fulmer and his staff were the cream of the crop. He recruited better than everyone and he outcoached his peers. However, around 2003 area he got lazy, replaced his staff with 2nd raters and kept his own 2nd raters. His biggest error was that he refused to change his coaching style and could not keep up with the new coaches coming into the league. Spurrier was a prime example. I was here in his glory years and sadly in his demise. But, I am still here.

 

[Vollifer1949]

Nope. My "bias" is that I would LOVE for him to be an elite DC. Just not seeing it. UT stopped that play. That play was STUPID on the part of Clemson. BTW, Banks isn't the ST's coach. That's Ekeler.


Because I can both enjoy success and have a constant hunger for a higher level of success. It was a great season... that could have been greater if the D had not had an inexplicably bad collapse vs USCe. But that wasn't the only failure. Just the only one that the O could not overcome.