War in Ukraine

#70,628
#70,628
hog88 said:
Your own link says that a security assurance is not the same as a security guarantee.
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Context is key Hog, and the context here is the word "NATO" prior to "security guarantee".

Meaning that the Budapest Memorandum, is not the equivalent of NATO Article 5.
 
#70,629
#70,629
BeardedVol said:
Context is key Hog, and the context here is the word "NATO" prior to "security guarantee".

Meaning that the Budapest Memorandum, is not the equivalent of NATO Article 5.
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You're just reaching, interpreting it how you want in order to bolster your own incorrect thinking.
 
#70,630
#70,630
hog88 said:
The Ukraine was a part of the USSR until 1991 and from then until the early/mid 2000s were a close trading partner and ally of Russia. So no, Ukraine has not always been a US ally.

If a deal with Russia could bring them in as a counter to China I don't see how that would embolden the Chinese.
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I remember when North Korea made a big leap in their ballistic missile tech, and it was believed they did so with Ukrainian help.
 
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#70,632
#70,632
hog88 said:
No, explain to them that security assurances are not the same as security grantees.

You're wrong about your interpretation but at least smart enough to understand that difference.
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Oh I’m completely correct in my interpretation as far as I’m concerned just as you are as sure you are correct. Once again a piss poor document.

I’ve changed my stance on this over the last couple of years. I was in the assurances camp also. Then I started researching the details of all the documents in question and I can’t see any other conclusion than we have some undetermined level of commitment to supplying aid including lethal aid.
 
#70,642
#70,642
Velo Vol said:
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The business focus on an expedient result rather than on a correct result. Might not be the correct result but it's the quick and cheap solution ... and we wonder why this country is in the mess we are in. Simple expediency over principle, and pretty much always the wrong way to do it.
 
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#70,643
#70,643
AM64 said:
The business focus on an expedient result rather than on a correct result. Might not be the correct result but it's the quick and cheap solution ... and we wonder why this country is in the mess we are in. Simple expediency over principle, and pretty much always the wrong way to do it.
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Is it principled to put American taxpayers first and in front of others?
 
#70,646
#70,646
hog88 said:
Russia must be way out in front of the rest of the world in rail technology. Didn't see the first train car, engine or railroad track in a video of a rail station on fire. Stealth railroads!
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Do you doubt the story?

news.yahoo.com

Russian Railways' warehouses on fire in centre of Moscow

Warehouses with the property of the Russian Railways caught fire in the centre of Moscow on Komsomolskaya Square, also known as the Square of the Three Stations. Source: RIA Novosti, a Kremlin-aligned Russian news outlet; Russian Telegram channels Quote: "The fire occurred near warehouses in the...
news.yahoo.com news.yahoo.com
 
#70,648
#70,648
hog88 said:
Is it principled to put American taxpayers first and in front of others?
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I know we differ on support for Ukraine and it's unlikely to change. My view has to do with, to me, it's the right thing to do; that righting wrong is more important than much of any other consideration. I also believe that what you see as a European issue affects us all. WW2 was a European issue until it wasn't ... and the world is a smaller place now.

Our tax laws provide breaks to charitable organizations that you and I may find at odds with our beliefs. Not all tax law puts the American taxpayer first either - and neither does a lot of legislation targeted at the few at the cost to the many. To me those are far worse than helping one country fight for its freedom - particularly when the intruder has shown a pattern that will likely expand.

I very much believe in the "Millions for Defense, Not One Cent for Tribute" concept because it says we (and to me, by extension to friendly nations) are willing to fight for freedom. If you let the playground bully win, he will always expand his quest. Which goes to what Niemöller said about about an enemy who first came for someone else but not being concerned because it wasn't you, so you did nothing. Do I think we are or would be a Russian target? Very unlikely. But intervening early when it's relatively easy has generally proven better than playing catch up.
 
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#70,649
#70,649
hog88 said:
The Ukraine was a part of the USSR until 1991 and from then until the early/mid 2000s were a close trading partner and ally of Russia. So no, Ukraine has not always been a US ally.

If a deal with Russia could bring them in as a counter to China I don't see how that would embolden the Chinese.
Click to expand...

You could make the same comment about Poland; they were also a captive part of the USSR. They are a pretty staunch ally these days. Not all our fiends began as friends, and it's easy to lose a friend (new or old) by turning your back.
 
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#70,650
#70,650
AM64 said:
You could make the same comment about Poland; they were also a captive part of the USSR. They are a pretty staunch ally these days. Not all our fiends began as friends, and it's easy to lose a friend (new or old) by turning your back.
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Yeah but Poland never sided with the NAZIs.
 
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