War in Ukraine

#828
#828
hog88 said:
Dead American diplomats are a good excuse to go to war.
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#829
#829
Burhead said:
NATO hasn't been aggressive towards Russia, Russia HAS been aggressive to its neighbors though so no I don't. Since the fall of the USSR, Russia has supported and propped up separatist republics in Moldova, Georgia, and now Ukraine so tell me this isn't a pattern of behavior?
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Georgia = The US propped up Saakashvili
Ukraine = Staged a coup and allowed the Svoboda/neo-Nazis run the country after they ousted Yanukovych
 
#832
#832
Rasputin_Vol said:
Georgia = The US propped up Saakashvili
Ukraine = Staged a coup and allowed the Svoboda/neo-Nazis run the country after they ousted Yanukovych
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Saakashvili was a democratically elected leader whose people want closer ties with the West and NATO are you saying again Georgia can not control its own sovereign affairs?

The second I'm not even going to dignify with a real response. That is the #1 propaganda piece the Russians use when talking about Ukraine. There are no Nazis running that country and for you to even say that shows how much you shrill for the Russians.
 
#834
#834
Burhead said:
Saakashvili was a democratically elected leader whose people want closer ties with the West and NATO are you saying again Georgia can not control its own sovereign affairs?
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Saakashvili is a carpet bagging tool for the west. Ukrainian one minute and Georgian the next. Whatever is convenient at the time.
 
#836
#836
Rasputin_Vol said:
I guess Max Blumenthal is a Russian asset?

Is the US backing neo-Nazis in Ukraine? | Salon.com
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Yes? He has appeared numerous times on RT and other Russian media and have carried the water for Russian foreign policy actions in the past. Still doesn't change the fact that Nazis nor Nationalists control Ukraine. You can throw out names like Svoboda, Right Sector, or Azov and it still doesn't change the fact that they do not hold power.
 
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#837
#837
Burhead said:
Yes? He has appeared numerous times on RT and other Russian media and have carried the water for Russian foreign policy actions in the past. Still doesn't change the fact that Nazis nor Nationalists control Ukraine. You can throw out names like Svoboda, Right Sector, or Azov and it still doesn't change the fact that they do not hold power.
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Blumenthal is a known and documented anti-Semite and prototypical Russian shill and Putin apologist and water carrier. To see Ras offer him up here is just a cherry on top of this long line of water pails 😂
 
#841
#841
Echoes Of McCain In Maidan: Large Group Of Senators Travel To Kiev In "Message" To Russia | ZeroHedge





This would be something right out of the US playbook... they are projecting.
Just days ago the Biden administration went so far as to accuse Russia of planning a "false flag" operation in order to justify an incursion into Ukraine. A Friday Bloomberg story said, "The Biden administration believes Russian actors are preparing potential sabotage operations against their own forces and fabricating provocations in social media to justify an invasion into Ukraine, according to a U.S. official." The claims based unnamed sources first appeared in CNN.
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#844
#844
Russia potentially invading Ukraine raises the same questions of 30+ years ago when Iraq invaded Kuwait. Does the invaded country meet the threshold of its sovereignty being worth our intervention? Is it in our best national interest to put our troops in harm's way?

If you asked the Kuwait question today, would the answer be different than it was in 1990? From an economic standpoint I think so, considering that we're energy independent now. But allowing that invasion to stand unchallenged... would that have been a precedent that the US could have acceded to in principle? Would it have emboldened other countries to believe such actions would have similarly gone unchallenged and without consequence?

The same questions apply to Ukraine today, I think.

Is it really in our best national strategic interest to enter a war with Russia over Ukraine?

Would Russia be emboldened to take other smaller bordering countries if we idly sit by and watch Ukraine fall? Or would this strengthen our hand by forcing the Finland's and Sweden's of the world to immediately join NATO? Or does this prospect actually just bring us closer to an inevitable war with Russia due to NATO's war response clause?

Would our entering this potential war be any different than our rationale for trying to "stop the spread of communism" in south Asia in the Vietnam civil war?

Is it our moral duty, somehow, to intervene on behalf of Ukrainians?

I really waffle on most of these questions, but I think that just sitting by and watching Ukraine get carved up just strikes me as wrong.
 
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#845
#845
MontyPython said:
Russia potentially invading Ukraine raises the same questions of 30+ years ago when Iraq invaded Kuwait. Does the invaded country meet the threshold of its sovereignty being worth our intervention? Is it in our best national interest to put our troops in harm's way?

If you asked the Kuwait question today, would the answer be different than it was in 1990? From an economic standpoint I think so, considering that we're energy independent now. But allowing that invasion to stand unchallenged... would that have been a precedent that the US could have acceded to in principle? Would it have emboldened other countries to believe such actions would have similarly gone unchallenged and without consequence?
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Hmmm....have you been asleep for the last year?
 
#846
#846
Vol423 said:
Hmmm....have you been asleep for the last year?
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Possibly. I did get COVID, and the nanobots in my brain make me want to anoint Bill Gates as World Leader Forever.

But here's the situation on energy independence (see graph).

So, yeah, we're hovering around "energy independence".

oil.jpg
 
#847
#847
MontyPython said:
Russia potentially invading Ukraine raises the same questions of 30+ years ago when Iraq invaded Kuwait. Does the invaded country meet the threshold of its sovereignty being worth our intervention? Is it in our best national interest to put our troops in harm's way?

If you asked the Kuwait question today, would the answer be different than it was in 1990? From an economic standpoint I think so, considering that we're energy independent now. But allowing that invasion to stand unchallenged... would that have been a precedent that the US could have acceded to in principle? Would it have emboldened other countries to believe such actions would have similarly gone unchallenged and without consequence?

The same questions apply to Ukraine today, I think.

Is it really in our best national strategic interest to enter a war with Russia over Ukraine?

Would Russia be emboldened to take other smaller bordering countries if we idly sit by and watch Ukraine fall? Or would this strengthen our hand by forcing the Finland's and Sweden's of the world to immediately join NATO? Or does this prospect actually just bring us closer to an inevitable war with Russia due to NATO's war response clause?

Would our entering this potential war be any different than our rationale for trying to "stop the spread of communism" in south Asia in the Vietnam civil war?

Is it our moral duty, somehow, to intervene on behalf of Ukrainians?

I really waffle on most of these questions, but I think that just sitting by and watching Ukraine get carved up just strikes me as wrong.
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We are energy independent? Would have never guessed that as I filled up this morning.
 
#848
#848
85SugarVol said:
We are energy independent? Would have never guessed that as I filled up this morning.
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Per Forbes, November, 2021:

"Are We Energy Independent?

The Energy Information Administration (EIA) tabulated U.S. energy consumption in 2019 and 2020, and determined that for both full years, counting all energy sources, we were energy independent. Even though U.S. energy production declined by 5% in 2020, energy consumption also declined by 3% as the pandemic impacted the economy. So, our energy independence was shrinking as the pandemic unfolded.

As I noted above, the EIA wrote:

“Annual crude oil production generally decreased between 1970 and 2008. In 2009, the trend reversed and production began to rise, and in 2019, U.S. crude oil production reached a record high of 12.25 million barrels per day. More cost-effective drilling and production technologies helped to drive the production increases, especially in Texas and North Dakota. U.S. crude oil production declined to about 11.31 million barrels per day in 2020. A large drop in U.S. petroleum demand in March and April 2020 as a result of the response to the Covid-19 pandemic led to a decrease in U.S. oil production.”

So, in 2009 we began the march to energy independence. Those wishing to credit President Trump for this need to take another look at that net imports graphic to grasp the full picture.

But we don’t actually know if, once the full year of 2021 has been accounted for, we lost our energy independence for the year. If it turns out that we did, the single largest factor in that will be that oil and natural gas production have yet to return back to pre-Covid-19 levels. But demand has recovered, and therein lies the reason."
 
#849
#849
MontyPython said:
Per Forbes, November, 2021:

But we don’t actually know if, once the full year of 2021 has been accounted for, we lost our energy independence for the year. If it turns out that we did, the single largest factor in that will be that oil and natural gas production have yet to return back to pre-Covid-19 levels. But demand has recovered, and therein lies the reason."
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No. We know the answer. However, the Biden Administration will try their best to hide that information as long as possible (until after the Congressional elections, if possible).
 
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