War in Ukraine

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BeardedVol said:
Russia would stop killing Ukrainians if they surrendered?

Source?
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There is no way to stop Ukranians from being killed by Russians.

If they fight, they're killed.
Maybe they could flee to other countries as refugees.

Ukranians cannot control Putin / Russia. Therefore there is nothing they can do outside of their own autonomy which is going to stop Russia from killing them. Russian as aggressor has to decide to stop.
 
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Gl022pMWQAAOU92
 
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McDad said:
It's so obvious.

Sometimes Bearded gets into "scoring debate points" with poorly sourced or irrelevant links more than he does discussing the topics.
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That aside, he'd need to provide the same guarantees of future outcomes for other options besides 'surrender' to be intellectually honest. For instance, he seems to be saying that the outcome of surrender would be too bad for Ukraine, so we need to dismiss it as an option. Well, what are the other options, and what are the 'guarantees' there?

Other options:

1. US and/or Europe enter a treaty with Ukraine to go to war with Russia on Ukrainian behalf. What are the guarantees that it does not escalate to nuclear? I mean, apparently Putin is unhinged and evil enough to keep killing after a surrender. But you'll guarantee that he won't press the big red button when the rest of the worlds' nuclear powers team up against him. Seems a self-defeating guarantee.

2. The US negotiates an end to the war with US economic interests and US civilians on the ground in a buffer zone. Seems more likely to prevent both the killing of more soldiers as well as possible nuclear escalation?

All options need the same 'Minority Report' treatment that been given for surrender.
 
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LouderVol said:
not much of a distinction when it comes to Russia.
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Anyone can make that claim about anyone and its just magically true. The Japanese were convincing the people the Americans were so bad that they were committing mass suicides. Conditional surrender is a hell of a lot better than unconditional surrender.

If one believes what you wrote, which I don't think you actually believe... this is all a waste of time.
 
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LouderVol said:
not much of a distinction when it comes to Russia.
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Okay, let's deal with that at face value. if the lament is We wish there was something that could be done for Russians to stop killing Ukrainians, and the Ukrainians have no ability to exert control over Russia or Putin. Then, what are their options??
 
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LSU-SIU said:
Anyone can make that claim about anyone and its just magically true. The Japanese were convincing the people the Americans were so bad that they were committing mass suicides. Conditional surrender is a hell of a lot better than unconditional surrender.

If one believes what you wrote, which I don't think you actually believe... this is all a waste of time.
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lol. you don't have to make it up when it comes to Russia. Even in this war they have deported most of the people living in the regions they have conquered to Siberia. thats not a death sentence, buts its pretty much life without parole in extremely dangerous conditions.

look back at any of their occupations/control of Ukraine. It has NEVER gone well for Ukraine.
 
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McDad said:
Okay, let's deal with that at face value. if the lament is We wish there was something that could be done for Russians to stop killing Ukrainians, and the Ukrainians have no ability to exert control over Russia or Putin. Then, what are their options??
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Ukraine's option is to fight. any way or form they can come up with.

if I was them I would focus on a nuclear program as priority number 1. in the 40s we developed nukes in less than a decade. fast forward it shouldn't take that long, especially as the understanding of nuclear systems is present in Ukraine at least in the form of power production.

if I was them I wouldn't be listening to any of the wests restrictions on warfare. I would solely target significant infrastructure important to the running of Russia as a nation. forget their attacks on civilian targets, that has yet to be proven to work. but if you hit the infrastructure you can widen the war. make it too costly for Russia to continue.

I would also be reaching out to any and all dissidents in Russia. up the local game to similarly disrupt Russia. they aren't going to, and don't need to defeat Russia on the front line.
 
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LouderVol said:
lol. you don't have to make it up when it comes to Russia. Even in this war they have deported most of the people living in the regions they have conquered to Siberia. thats not a death sentence, buts its pretty much life without parole in extremely dangerous conditions.

look back at any of their occupations/control of Ukraine. It has NEVER gone well for Ukraine.
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My bet is you haven't been within 5,000 miles of Russia. Anyone can say something is true.

My significant other's mother has pictures from her father's time in the South Pacific during WW2. What are the pictures of... beheaded Japanese soldiers being held up in the air by American soldiers. War is not pretty. Did the Japanese make a mistake by unconditionally surrendering, no. In this case, they (Ukrainians) can put conditions on the agreement probably still at this stage. The deal is going to get worse every day i.e. unconditional surrender.
 
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LouderVol said:
Ukraine's option is to fight. any way or form they can come up with.

if I was them I would focus on a nuclear program as priority number 1. in the 40s we developed nukes in less than a decade. fast forward it shouldn't take that long, especially as the understanding of nuclear systems is present in Ukraine at least in the form of power production.

if I was them I wouldn't be listening to any of the wests restrictions on warfare. I would solely target significant infrastructure important to the running of Russia as a nation. forget their attacks on civilian targets, that has yet to be proven to work. but if you hit the infrastructure you can widen the war. make it too costly for Russia to continue.

I would also be reaching out to any and all dissidents in Russia. up the local game to similarly disrupt Russia. they aren't going to, and don't need to defeat Russia on the front line.
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Actually they should have been fighting, they should have been fighting the people throwing them in vans and kidnapping them, imo. I would take out anyone trying to kidnap me. They should be exterminating the people that sold them out to start all this nonsense. 🤷‍♂️

The Ukrainians aren't going to be developing nuclear weapons chief.
 
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LSU-SIU said:
My bet is you haven't been within 5,000 miles of Russia. Anyone can say something is true.

My significant other's mother has pictures from her father's time in the South Pacific during WW2. What are the pictures of... beheaded Japanese soldiers being held up in the air by American soldiers. War is not pretty. Did the Japanese make a mistake by unconditionally surrendering, no. In this case, they (Ukrainians) can put conditions on the agreement probably still as this stage. The deal is going to get worse every day.
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not sure what the first has to do with the price of tea in China. but if it makes a difference to you I have been less than 1000 miles from Russia a couple times. again not that that means anything to anyone but you jousting at windmills.

I have my granddads dog tags with shrapnel damage from the Japanese dive bomber that targeted his ship. again not sure what that has to do with anything but weird flex bro.

war isn't pretty for anyone. Ukraine is not facing the same level of destruction as Japan did. We killed more in three attacks on Japan than Ukraine has lost in the entire war. you are making an assumption that Ukraine is about to give in. Things are going to get worse for them if/when we pull out, but that doesn't mean its over for them. especially if they are able to replace our aid with European aid, or they have been able to drive up their own production enough in the time our support bought them. I know they are trying to export combat drones because they can't find enough use for them themselves, so they have clearly made some progress.
 
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LouderVol said:
Ukraine's option is to fight. any way or form they can come up with.

if I was them I would focus on a nuclear program as priority number 1. in the 40s we developed nukes in less than a decade. fast forward it shouldn't take that long, especially as the understanding of nuclear systems is present in Ukraine at least in the form of power production.

if I was them I wouldn't be listening to any of the wests restrictions on warfare. I would solely target significant infrastructure important to the running of Russia as a nation. forget their attacks on civilian targets, that has yet to be proven to work. but if you hit the infrastructure you can widen the war. make it too costly for Russia to continue.

I would also be reaching out to any and all dissidents in Russia. up the local game to similarly disrupt Russia. they aren't going to, and don't need to defeat Russia on the front line.
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This does nothing to stop Russians from killing Ukrainians. Many more ukrainians will be killed before, or even if, a successful defense is realized.
 
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McDad said:
Yall have gone off the deep end trying to extrapolate opinions on Ukraine/ Russia into poo flinging about defense of one's home country.
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Yes, it is a stupid question. It's a straw man argument, red herring, whatever you want to call it. But one has nothing to do with the other. Looking from the outside, we should not be encouraging Ukraine to continue fighting, unless we are willing to put boots on the ground. The amount of weapons and money were pouring into that place is not going to change the outcome. Unless we give them nukes
 
#86,223
#86,223
McDad said:
There is no way to stop Ukranians from being killed by Russians.

If they fight, they're killed.
Maybe they could flee to other countries as refugees.

Ukranians cannot control Putin / Russia. Therefore there is nothing they can do outside of their own autonomy which is going to stop Russia from killing them. Russian as aggressor has to decide to stop.
Click to expand...
Correct, obviously the UN could not control Putin. All the sanctions given on Russia did not change, so Americans and Europeans either put boots on the ground to help defend Ukraine or try to negotiate peace. I don't think bearded Vols post could even stop putin
 
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