Wars, genocide, reparations, religion, etc (split from recruiting forum)

#1

BigSteve09

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#1
LOVE anything on the Five Families. So interesting. So much history.

Thank you. I'll add this to my "moran stuff to listen to at work". Just started Dan Carlin's podcast today @Ulysees E. McGill ...Celtic Holocaust episode. I could listen to it all day.
Hell yeah try to find the WW1 or Mongol episodes if you can. I think the Japanese empire ones are still free.


that five families book is the most comprehensive and thorough work on the American mafia. It's fascinating. There are some single chapters that would make amazing movies.

Edit: 1st post of the war thread


Wv5l.gif
 
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#2
#2
Hell yeah try to find the WW1 or Mongol episodes if you can. I think the Japanese empire ones are still free.


that five families book is the most comprehensive and thorough work on the American mafia. It's fascinating. There are some single chapters that would make amazing movies.
Supernova in the East(Japanese lead up to and through WW2) and The King of Kings(old Persian Empire) and a few one offs like Celtic Apocalypse are free...The Wrath of the Khans (obvious which one this is) and Blueprint for Armageddon (WW1) are not.
 
#3
#3
Supernova in the East(Japanese lead up to and through WW2) and The King of Kings(old Persian Empire) and a few one offs like Celtic Apocalypse are free...The Wrath of the Khans (obvious which one this is) and Blueprint for Armageddon (WW1) are not.
Supernova in the East is a great listen… I read Chris Wallace’s Countdown to 1945 just before I listened to this, inadvertently. Pairing the two together, it’s hard to say Truman did anything other than make the only possible decision. I mean, there were Japanese Gorilla soldiers fighting 29 years after the war ended that would only stop when relieved by their commanding officer… CRAZY!
 
#4
#4
Supernova in the East is a great listen… I read Chris Wallace’s Countdown to 1945 just before I listened to this, inadvertently. Pairing the two together, it’s hard to say Truman did anything other than make the only possible decision. I mean, there were Japanese Gorilla soldiers fighting 29 years after the war ended that would only stop when relieved by their commanding officer… CRAZY!
Wtf how do some geurilla fighters justify dropping two nukes on civilians? They were trying to surrender before that, but we had cut off diplomatic contact.
 
#5
#5
Wtf how do some geurilla fighters justify dropping two nukes on civilians? They were trying to surrender before that, but we had cut off diplomatic contact.
Are you really taking up for Japan right now? The country that sided with Hitler. How many people died leading up to dropping the bombs? How many millions of civilians got killed before they dropped them. I would have dropped enough on them there would be no country left. I also know they were weakened before it and would have ended up surrendering to Russia and that wouldn’t have ended well either. Freakin pansy.
 
#6
#6
Are you really taking up for Japan right now? The country that sided with Hitler. How many people died leading up to dropping the bombs? How many millions of civilians got killed before they dropped them. I would have dropped enough on them there would be no country left. I also know they were weakened before it and would have ended up surrendering to Russia and that wouldn’t have ended well either. Freakin pansy.

Nvm.
 
#7
#7
I love talking history and hypotheticals. Where I get a bit sideways is when it comes to trying to judge relative evil during wartime. There are so many lesser evils, what ifs, and circumstantial happenings that it becomes confusing for me. Then you get to the scale. I can comprehend the loss of one life. When the number gets to several hundred I don’t think I can quite wrap my head around the amount of suffering caused. That’s probably by design. If we were truly sympathetic to the plight of war casualties we would probably all just curl up in a ball and give up.

Anyway, I say that to say this…. Japan started it. Also, they were running around pulling some truly heinous acts during the first part of the 20th century. I get that there were innocents who weren’t part of that but when you cross the line to the extent the Japanese military did you typically don’t get to specify the method of retribution.

Also, those atomic bombs were used as a deterrent. If the US military had sought to do as much damage as possible they would had resumed firebombing.
 
#8
#8
I love talking history and hypotheticals. Where I get a bit sideways is when it comes to trying to judge relative evil during wartime. There are so many lesser evils, what ifs, and circumstantial happenings that it becomes confusing for me. Then you get to the scale. I can comprehend the loss of one life. When the number gets to several hundred I don’t think I can quite wrap my head around the amount of suffering caused. That’s probably by design. If we were truly sympathetic to the plight of war casualties we would probably all just curl up in a ball and give up.

Anyway, I say that to say this…. Japan started it. Also, they were running around pulling some truly heinous acts during the first part of the 20th century. I get that there were innocents who weren’t part of that but when you cross the line to the extent the Japanese military did you typically don’t get to specify the method of retribution.

Also, those atomic bombs were used as a deterrent. If the US military had sought to do as much damage as possible they would had resumed firebombing.
Civilian casualties, innocent or otherwise, have always been a part of war since its inception. The government is supposed to be the tool of the people and representative of the people. Governments acting against the will of the people set the stage for revolution. Given that the Japanese believed that their emperor was a deity, they supported its policies to include the atrocities in China, treatment of POWs, and science experiments such as live vivisection. Also people mention the atomic bombs, but we killed far more in the fire bombing of Tokyo.
 
#9
#9
I love talking history and hypotheticals. Where I get a bit sideways is when it comes to trying to judge relative evil during wartime. There are so many lesser evils, what ifs, and circumstantial happenings that it becomes confusing for me. Then you get to the scale. I can comprehend the loss of one life. When the number gets to several hundred I don’t think I can quite wrap my head around the amount of suffering caused. That’s probably by design. If we were truly sympathetic to the plight of war casualties we would probably all just curl up in a ball and give up.

Anyway, I say that to say this…. Japan started it. Also, they were running around pulling some truly heinous acts during the first part of the 20th century. I get that there were innocents who weren’t part of that but when you cross the line to the extent the Japanese military did you typically don’t get to specify the method of retribution.

Also, those atomic bombs were used as a deterrent. If the US military had sought to do as much damage as possible they would had resumed firebombing.


The "Rape of Nanking" was enough to warrant the bomb IMO.
 
#10
#10
Civilian casualties, innocent or otherwise, have always been a part of war since its inception. The government is supposed to be the tool of the people and representative of the people. Governments acting against the will of the people set the stage for revolution. Given that the Japanese believed that their emperor was a deity, they supported its policies to include the atrocities in China, treatment of POWs, and science experiments such as live vivisection. Also people mention the atomic bombs, but we killed far more in the fire bombing of Tokyo.
We could have and should have allowed them to surrender before the nukes were dropped. The people of Japan would have ostensibly surrendered fanatically if we carry that logic through. And I would also count the fire bombings of Tokyo, Dresden, Berlin, etc in the list of unjustified atrocities.
 
#11
#11
We could have and should have allowed them to surrender before the nukes were dropped. The people of Japan would have ostensibly surrendered fanatically if we carry that logic through. And I would also count the fire bombings of Tokyo, Dresden, Berlin, etc in the list of unjustified atrocities.
Nobody believed we had bombs that big, we could have told them but they wouldn't believe it. They didn't surrender after the first one because they didn't think we had anymore. So after they second bomb, they knew we had capabilities to keep producing them. This is what I remember from some documentary . Could be remembering wrong.
 
#12
#12
Nobody believed we had bombs that big, we could have told them but they wouldn't believe it. They didn't surrender after the first one because they didn't think we had anymore. So after they second bomb, they knew we had capabilities to keep producing them. This is what I remember from some documentary . Could be remembering wrong.
General Dwight Eisenhower, in his memoirs, recalled a visit from Secretary of War Henry Stimson in late July 1945: “I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of ‘face.’”
 
#17
#17
We could have and should have allowed them to surrender before the nukes were dropped. The people of Japan would have ostensibly surrendered fanatically if we carry that logic through. And I would also count the fire bombings of Tokyo, Dresden, Berlin, etc in the list of unjustified atrocities.
How do you propose to win wars your side didn't start?
 
#19
#19
We could have and should have allowed them to surrender before the nukes were dropped. The people of Japan would have ostensibly surrendered fanatically if we carry that logic through. And I would also count the fire bombings of Tokyo, Dresden, Berlin, etc in the list of unjustified atrocities.
Traitor
 
#20
#20
General Dwight Eisenhower, in his memoirs, recalled a visit from Secretary of War Henry Stimson in late July 1945: “I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of ‘face.’”
Eisenhower had no idea what fighting Japan was like...he was a fool if he believed that.
 
#21
#21
We could have and should have allowed them to surrender before the nukes were dropped. The people of Japan would have ostensibly surrendered fanatically if we carry that logic through. And I would also count the fire bombings of Tokyo, Dresden, Berlin, etc in the list of unjustified atrocities.

.00001% chance Japan would have surrendered. They would have fought to the last man, woman, and child.
 
#22
#22
Wtf how do some geurilla fighters justify dropping two nukes on civilians? They were trying to surrender before that, but we had cut off diplomatic contact.
Perhaps this is a case of viewing things through a 2022 lens? I cant imagine anyone wanted to see civilians die. Esp after the holocaust. Think about, US didnt want to engage in the War. Remember, the day that would live in infamy.

I'm not justifying things. I'm saying look at the impossible position Harry Truman was in. We had lost over a quarter of a million soldiers. 4 years of war in two separate theaters, one against an unspeakable evil & other against the most ruthless, determined enemy to that time.

Not sure you can apply today's WV against that decision. I can just say i'm glad i wasnt the guy who had to make it.
 

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