Wars, genocide, reparations, religion, etc (split from recruiting forum)

#426
#426
bignewt said:
In the name of God they sure did not think it was bad.
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I have zero doubt that in 100-200 years our own times will be looked upon quite terribly. Not quite slaveowners, but a decent step down. At least first and second world folks. The poor may get a reprieve though.
 
#432
#432
bignewt said:
I love the argument " hey they were attacking each other before we showed up so our atrocities are totally cool."
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That was never the argument for me at least. I was responding to Devo’s comments that native tribes weren’t really conquering any land, but instead trading it back and forth through violence over time lol.
 
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#434
#434
The human heart is greedy and selfish. Humans can rationalize horrific atrocities against fellow humans. We live in a world of chaos. The question is not why do people conquer other people. The real question is, How have we survived?
 
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#435
#435
Devo182 said:
Not when originally getting there. This seems obvious.

Why I left in, "there was to some degree" there. Ofc they fought in due time. Just talking...the lands were originally not conquered lands.

Wouldn't that have to be true of all land, minus the original lands in Ethiopia? All lands were originally not conquered.

I was responding to, "ALL" lands were conquered. No they were not.
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All lands are conquered lands. Even the lands in Ethiopia. All.
 
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#436
#436
bignewt said:
Nope. Accept change. Like a Heupel offense scoring a fifty burger by halftime, it is inevitable.
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Change is fine and it is inevitable, but your change seems like it’s because of that post. Really none of my business, but I always enjoyed your nonconformity even when I didn’t always agree with your views, but, none of my business.
 
#437
#437
Big Orange#1 said:
That was never the argument for me at least. I was responding to Devo’s comments that native tribes weren’t really conquering any land, but instead trading it back and forth through violence over time lol.
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Except I never said that. In fact, I put that exact nuance in my OP, in case someone misunderstood that I was merely disagreeing with an extremely broad statement.

I was responding to, "all land was conquered land throughout history". That would be saying all lands originally began with people in them...and then 100% of them were defeated.

Anthropology and even religion would disagree all lands began with people in them. People spread over time. Thus, many many many lands were discovered without conquer. Dare I say the vast majority.
 
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#438
#438
Devo182 said:
Fair enough. Maybe I'll land somewhere in between.

But their lives were undoubtedly minimized in this conquest, merely a small hurdle to overcome, without much concern of the human life and full of exceptionalism.

"The major ideas of manifest destiny can be traced to the original ideology of the 15th-century decree of the Doctrine of Christian Discovery. Historian Nick Estes links the 15th century the catholic churches Doctrine of distinguishing Christians from Non-Christians in the expansion of European nations.

John Marshall ruled on the case that "indigenous peoples possess 'occupancy' rights, meaning their lands could be taken by the powers of 'discovery'". Frichner explains that "The newly formed United States needed to manufacture an American Indian political identity and concept of Indian land that would open the way for united states and westward colonial expansion." In this way, Manifest Destiny was inspired by the original European colonization of the Americas, and it excuses U.S. violence against Indigenous Nations.

Historian William E. Weeks noted in 1996 that three key themes were usually touched upon by advocates of manifest destiny:

the virtue of the American people and their institutions;

the mission to spread these institutions, thereby redeeming and remaking the world in the image of the United States;

the destiny under God to do this work"
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It's a delicate point but it matters because even when results are the same or similar the intention of those responsible matters.

As for the philosophy of manifest destiny... When you go back to that time, you have the Catholic Church dictating a lot of what the state can and can't do. They couldn't stop the state or even certain non-clerical parts of the church from a lot of things but they could make rules that said things like 'you can't engage in any torture that draws blood,' or 'you can't enslave a fellow christian,' etc. And in the various Protestant nations you have similar things going on (well except in England where suddenly the King is Head of the Church). Unfortunately, those rules only spurred creativity. Instead of getting the message that torture is wrong - they invented things like 'the rack' so they could torture without drawing blood and instead of enslaving Christians they went across the world to enslave.

In 1492 Columbus sailed the Ocean Blue *BUT* Spain also expelled all the Jews from their lands. They'd been in so much turmoil from various wars with the Moors that many Jews and other religious minorities were either forced or compelled to convert in the name of survival - either literally or so that they could do business and have the same rights as their Christian neighbors. All that gets brought into the age of exploration.

The idea that nation was the same thing as God and King and to be a good citizen means to be in service to all three is very much a part of it all and it was every man's duty to carry out this hierarchy on the small scale. Just as it was the white man's burden to teach and keep inferior women and African slaves from reverting to our lesser selves, it was also the white man's burden to civilize the savage and 'take care' of his lands.

It's all a bunch of pablum but it worked wonderfully to keep the middle class (the only class that could effectively force change due to numbers with the addition of actual resources to draw upon) from ever siding with the poor or downtrodden and overthrowing the one's running the show.
 
#445
#445
Enki_Amenra said:
View attachment 566865
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DearestDelightfulDodo-max-1mb.gif
 
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#446
#446
You know for the past week I've thought my twitter wasn't fully loading because of the stupid X. What the hell is with the X?
 
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#448
#448
Ulysees E. McGill said:
I have a lot of Celtic (Manx) DNA....I suppose I am supposed to hate the Italians, the Norse, the Anglo-Saxon and every other peoples leaders going back to Cro-Magnon times that kicked my ancestors ass? I'm sure they probably did some kicking ass along the way too.
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I definitely hate the Norse, Anglo-Saxons, English and Vikings!
 
#449
#449
UTProf said:
You know for the past week I've thought my twitter wasn't fully loading because of the stupid X. What the hell is with the X?
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I can get to a tweet but none of the comments or the person homepage or other tweets. I assume this means one now has to pay. But someone here will likely know.
 
#450
#450
UTProf said:
It's a delicate point but it matters because even when results are the same or similar the intention of those responsible matters.

As for the philosophy of manifest destiny... When you go back to that time, you have the Catholic Church dictating a lot of what the state can and can't do. They couldn't stop the state or even certain non-clerical parts of the church from a lot of things but they could make rules that said things like 'you can't engage in any torture that draws blood,' or 'you can't enslave a fellow christian,' etc. And in the various Protestant nations you have similar things going on (well except in England where suddenly the King is Head of the Church). Unfortunately, those rules only spurred creativity. Instead of getting the message that torture is wrong - they invented things like 'the rack' so they could torture without drawing blood and instead of enslaving Christians they went across the world to enslave.

In 1492 Columbus sailed the Ocean Blue *BUT* Spain also expelled all the Jews from their lands. They'd been in so much turmoil from various wars with the Moors that many Jews and other religious minorities were either forced or compelled to convert in the name of survival - either literally or so that they could do business and have the same rights as their Christian neighbors. All that gets brought into the age of exploration.

The idea that nation was the same thing as God and King and to be a good citizen means to be in service to all three is very much a part of it all and it was every man's duty to carry out this hierarchy on the small scale. Just as it was the white man's burden to teach and keep inferior women and African slaves from reverting to our lesser selves, it was also the white man's burden to civilize the savage and 'take care' of his lands.

It's all a bunch of pablum but it worked wonderfully to keep the middle class (the only class that could effectively force change due to numbers with the addition of actual resources to draw upon) from ever siding with the poor or downtrodden and overthrowing the one's running the show.
Click to expand...
The only thing that bothers me is all the things that were done in the name of God. Just because someone claimed God's name doesn't mean God was anywhere near it.
 
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