Watched Cincinnati vs Duke Replay last night and....

#52
#52
Also vandy should've beat us in Neyland two years ago but they blew it. Right now in our current situation vandy is a thorn in our side because they are playing better than I can ever remember. I think Franklin is a moron but he's got his players playing above their potential. I think Jones can do the same thing I'm just skeptical of this year which is to be expected by most REALISTIC fans.
 
#54
#54
Flipdaddy said:
Don't be a homer. It's ok not to be totally sold on your own football program. Florida will be good no doubt but Alabama caliber not likely. I could be wrong. I've been wrong before.
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Not being a homer on this.

Florida has won by double digits every season since 2007.

Florida has had offenses ranked 100+ nationally the last three seasons and still hung 30+ each year.

Florida will be at home after a bye week.

Tennessee will be playing the week following Oregon.

Whatever question marks Florida has, Tennessee has more and the concerns are larger.

I would be surprised if the game is in doubt in the 4th quarter.
 
#56
#56
I guess close I meant no more than 2 touchdowns...lol! I think UT's defense will keep them in most games close to the end unless offense goes 3 and out all night.
 
#57
#57
GBOVOLS said:
TAMU runs a spread offense, fla, and auburn did also. Outside of Bama all of the SEC championship caliber team ran some variation of the spread attack. I know you into the traditional style of power football but with the athleticism in the front 4 these days you need to run a spread attack to counter the players like Clowney
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LSU doesnt
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#58
#58
zidanefan said:
Jones gets paid to coach. Part of coaching is making the necessary adjustments, whether schematically, personnel, etc... If he's a good coach he'll make those adjustments. If not, he'll lose and get fired. Pretty simple. But thinking that he'll try the exact same thing as he did at UC in the SEC seems to undermine his intelligence, IMO.
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very good post. jones isnt an idiot. the success that he has had, is for a reason. he is good at what he does. good coaches win wherever they are at. so far Jones has done just that. that warrants at least a little bit of faith in the guy.
 
#59
#59
Flipdaddy said:
I'm really not impressed with the style of offense UC was running. I took into account that most of the coaching staff was already gone but I'm sure the Playbook was the same all season. Two things they had, a running QB that probably had as much yards as the tailback and fast tight end for their size. The quarterbacks running ability saved them on some crucial 3rd and longs. I didn't see a whole lot of power in this offense which scares me for SEC play. One other thing with this zone/read running style, our backs pitter pat, juke and jive at the line of scrimmage, we are DEAD! This is a one cut and go vertical type running attack. I hope UT has all the success in the world and I know it'll take time but after dissecting every formation and play last night I'm really concerned. ***I think the speed of the SEC defense is gonna really expose this style of offense.*** Hell.... we beat it with Dooley at the wheel and wasn't Sal coaching the defense?
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It's interesting that your argument has changed so radically over the course of this thread, yet you are trying to make it seem as though you were not questioning the scheme, but just this coming year. Reread what you wrote. It's quoted, so too late to edit.

You originally stated that the SEC is too fast for CBJs schemes.

When called on it, you changed it to 'Yah, well... The scheme only works if play makers get the ball.'. (Well, duh! Isn't that all schemes!?)

Now, it's not the scheme you question, just the talent we have this year? Faildozer.
 
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#61
#61
Flipdaddy said:
I'm really not impressed with the style of offense UC was running. I took into account that most of the coaching staff was already gone but I'm sure the Playbook was the same all season. Two things they had, a running QB that probably had as much yards as the tailback and fast tight end for their size. The quarterbacks running ability saved them on some crucial 3rd and longs. I didn't see a whole lot of power in this offense which scares me for SEC play. One other thing with this zone/read running style, our backs pitter pat, juke and jive at the line of scrimmage, we are DEAD! This is a one cut and go vertical type running attack. I hope UT has all the success in the world and I know it'll take time but after dissecting every formation and play last night I'm really concerned. I think the speed of the SEC defense is gonna really expose this style of offense. Hell.... we beat it with Dooley at the wheel and wasn't Sal coaching the defense?
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I read this post and I'm not too impressed with you ability to understand the game of football.
 
#64
#64
Flipdaddy said:
I guess close I meant no more than 2 touchdowns...lol! I think UT's defense will keep them in most games ...
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:no:

We are sloooooooow in DBs, and no depth or real talent on the DL. Linebackers, meh? One AJ a moved over slow safety BB and God knows who.

Real. Get. Now. :whatever:
 
#65
#65
Flipdaddy said:
Also vandy should've beat us in Neyland two years ago but they blew it. Right now in our current situation vandy is a thorn in our side because they are playing better than I can ever remember. I think Franklin is a moron but he's got his players playing above their potential. I think Jones can do the same thing I'm just skeptical of this year which is to be expected by most REALISTIC fans.
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I agree that Franklin has had his players playing above their potential. But there is still a huge gap between Franklin's players and Tennessee's. What you see is the difference between a coach getting more with less (Franklin) and one getting a lot less with more (Dooley/Chizik).

Don't discount that Vanderbilt's performance last year was boosted by playing the worst coach UT team in a century, and an Auburn team suffering similar issues. Yes, both UT and Auburn have far superior talent but if you put a 3rd grader in the pilot seat of an F-15, you don't get an ace, you get a smoking crater in the ground (a la Chizik/Dooley). Franklin also didn't beat a team with a winning record until he beat NCSU in a bowl game. We all know how the UT/NCSU game turned out.

People seem to want to exchange form with substance when talking about Franklin, and that is strongly fueled by media hype. So many are too wowed by seeing that Franklin has done things that don't usually happen at Vandy, that they forget about contextualizing those accomplishments.

It is like congratulating someone for winning a marathon, but not noting that he is racing against people who are blindfolded and have their feet tied together.

Your logic is that Franklin is a good coach and that he is doing much more with less, that is why he hung with UT two years ago and beat UT last year. Now we have Jones who has a history of over-performing with talent on the margin of an average of +2 games a year and you are making it sound like a first year coach can't over utilize talent. Isn't that the same argument you are making for Franklin?

I highly doubt that Franklin beats Freeze the first game of the season. I think Franklin will find himself on his heels a lot this year. He should have left when he seemed like a genius and could parlay that into some huge bucks elsewhere.

The bottom line is that the talent gap between Vanderbilt and everyone else in the SEC (except Kentucky) is still an ocean. As under performing but highly talented teams get better coaches, that difference will become extremely evident.
 
#66
#66
VolBraniac said:
:no:

We are sloooooooow in DBs, and no depth or real talent on the DL. Linebackers, meh? One AJ a moved over slow safety BB and God knows who.

Real. Get. Now. :whatever:
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What is your benchmark for foot speed of a defensive back?

Did you guys start watching football last year when Sunseri coached, and use that to form all of your conclusions?
 
#67
#67
daj2576 said:
I agree that Franklin has had his players playing above their potential. But there is still a huge gap between Franklin's players and Tennessee's. What you see is the difference between a coach getting more with less (Franklin) and one getting a lot less with more (Dooley/Chizik).

Don't discount that Vanderbilt's performance last year was boosted by playing the worst coach UT team in a century, and an Auburn team suffering similar issues. Yes, both UT and Auburn have far superior talent but if you put a 3rd grader in the pilot seat of an F-15, you don't get an ace, you get a smoking crater in the ground (a la Chizik/Dooley). Franklin also didn't beat a team with a winning record until he beat NCSU in a bowl game. We all know how the UT/NCSU game turned out.

People seem to want to exchange form with substance when talking about Franklin, and that is strongly fueled by media hype. So many are too wowed by seeing that Franklin has done things that don't usually happen at Vandy, that they forget about contextualizing those accomplishments.

It is like congratulating someone for winning a marathon, but not noting that he is racing against people who are blindfolded and have their feet tied together.

Your logic is that Franklin is a good coach and that he is doing much more with less, that is why he hung with UT two years ago and beat UT last year. Now we have Jones who has a history of beating Franklin with inferior talent.

I highly doubt that Franklin beats Freeze the first game of the season. I think Franklin will find himself on his heels a lot this year. He should have left when he seemed like a genius and could parlay that into some huge bucks elsewhere.

The bottom line is that the talent gap between Vanderbilt and everyone else in the SEC (except Kentucky) is still an ocean. As under performing but highly talented teams get better coaches, that difference will become extremely evident.
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Fixed your post. End argument. :)
 
#71
#71
Orange_Crush said:
It's interesting that your argument has changed so radically over the course of this thread, yet you are trying to make it seem as though you were not questioning the scheme, but just this coming year. Reread what you wrote. It's quoted, so too late to edit.

You originally stated that the SEC is too fast for CBJs schemes.

When called on it, you changed it to 'Yah, well... The scheme only works if play makers get the ball.'. (Well, duh! Isn't that all schemes!?)

Now, it's not the scheme you question, just the talent we have this year? Faildozer.
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Uh no my argument hasn't changed. People are just bringing up different points and that's good conversation. I STILL don't think that the spread has a lot of success in the SEC. With big play makers it's easier to have success. If it makes you feel better... I don't like the up tempo spread. I think Jones is a good coach and I hope he wins every game but I'm a little concerned that the Bamas and LSU's of the conference are going to whip our ass defensively.
 
#72
#72
Flipdaddy said:
Uh no my argument hasn't changed. People are just bringing up different points and that's good conversation. I STILL don't think that the spread has a lot of success in the SEC. With big play makers it's easier to have success. If it makes you feel better... I don't like the up tempo spread. I think Jones is a good coach and I hope he wins every game but I'm a little concerned that the Bamas and LSU's of the conference are going to whip our ass defensively.
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Read "The Blind Side". The movie didn't touch on most of the best information in that book. Not only do you find some incredible explanations of how the game has changed and why (most you would agree with) but the best statement is about the football conservatives versus the football liberals. To paraphrase: The football conservatives use brawn to beat you to death and do it so well that you would think they have it all figured out (think Saban/Miles and Fulmer) and the football liberals use tactics and skill to overcome the brawn. And, there are some liberals who do it so well as to make you think they have it all figured out.

In other words, several decades ago this same conversation was being had in the NFL between those in the Parcels camp and those in the Walsh camp. Parcels (and I don't think I am spelling his name correctly) was a brawn/defensive kind of guy, and Walsh was inventing the west coast offense (high percentage, short yardage passing plays). Walsh did this so well that he could double the yardage per play compared to the running brawny traditionalists, and dropped the turnover percentage down to match what you could expect by running the ball.

In other words, almost over night Walsh's 49ers changed the way football was played, and few even noticed (those who did notice discarded it as gimmicky).

We are here having the exact same conversation about the current evolution of football.

People will cite Oregon as the reason that the spread won't work against the SEC, but the explanation is simpler than that. Oregon doesn't really recruit all that well on average (compared to the SEC), and the SEC teams severely out recruited them at every position. Speed is great, but it needs to come with mass and strength.

Jones has consistently said, and rightfully so, that he will change his schemes to match his talent and not try to force his talent into a scheme. Whether that works or not with our talent is yet to be seen, but the spread can and will work against SEC defenses.

Top SEC defenses aren't currently equipped to stop similar talent in variable schemes. They are set up to stop similar talent running the ball (speaking generally), or to pound inferior talent doing variable schemes. If you play Bama's game without their talent, you will lose. That is why LSU v. Bama is a punching match. If you expose the schematic weaknesses of Bama/LSU and have talent that isn't substantially below theirs, you have exposed a weakness.

EDIT: I need to be clear about Oregon's recruiting. To get a comparison of the caliber of athlete that Oregon has on hand here is a good benchmark. Take a team and average the last four years of their rival recruiting rankings. Do that for every team in the NCAA for the 2013, 2012, 2011, 2010 classes. You will find that both UT and Oregon are tied at 14.75, and UT is 6th (mid pack) in the SEC. So, if Oregon was in the SEC you could then see the dearth in their talent compared to the top tier SEC recruiting schools (Bama, Florida, LSU, et al).
 
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#73
#73
Flipdaddy said:
I'm really not impressed with the style of offense UC was running. I took into account that most of the coaching staff was already gone but I'm sure the Playbook was the same all season. Two things they had, a running QB that probably had as much yards as the tailback and fast tight end for their size. The quarterbacks running ability saved them on some crucial 3rd and longs. I didn't see a whole lot of power in this offense which scares me for SEC play. One other thing with this zone/read running style, our backs pitter pat, juke and jive at the line of scrimmage, we are DEAD! This is a one cut and go vertical type running attack. I hope UT has all the success in the world and I know it'll take time but after dissecting every formation and play last night I'm really concerned. I think the speed of the SEC defense is gonna really expose this style of offense. Hell.... we beat it with Dooley at the wheel and wasn't Sal coaching the defense?
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:crazy:
 
#74
#74
Flipdaddy said:
Ok coach Bryant. What do I not understand about the game of football?
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Not enough hours in the day. Didn't UC score 14 points in 2 minutes at the end of that game? You also cite the need for playmakers to make the offense work, yet his team last year has no skill position guys who will get drafted in the first 3 rounds, so how did they manage to score so many points? I could go on.
 
#75
#75
Flipdaddy said:
Uh no my argument hasn't changed. People are just bringing up different points and that's good conversation. I STILL don't think that the spread has a lot of success in the SEC. With big play makers it's easier to have success. If it makes you feel better... I don't like the up tempo spread. I think Jones is a good coach and I hope he wins every game but I'm a little concerned that the Bamas and LSU's of the conference are going to whip our ass defensively.
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For the love of God-everyone's offense incorporates the Spread now. Even Alabamas. Saban has said as much. Last I checked they work in the SEC. So does the team that best Bama last year. How can you be aware of these things and write what you wrote?
 
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