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#52
#52
that August 2nd deadline is created as the crisis. it's manufactured and the media just goes along.
 
#54
#54
lawgator1 said:
I don't think Neocon's comments are that out of the ordinary for TPers this morning. There is a certain pride out there for them right now (I'd call it delusional self righteousness, but whatever).

One of the South Carolina TPers was on squawk box this morning and he was throwing out these meaningless jabs at Obama and the August 2 deadline, saying it wasn't real and he knew that because of a birthday party scheduled for August 3, implying that the administration had falsified the default deadline.

The TP contingent loathes Obama and they have convinced themselves that they can't believe anything he says. Even if Boehner says the same exact thing, they will set it aside if Obama has said it.

We can argue why they have this unyielding hatred for him forever, and not agree. So let's not go there in this thread, anyway.

But the issue right now is whether their tactics are going to have some consequences that right now they genuinely believe are fake. I think Boehner has to be at his wit's end trying to reason with them.
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that's why they hated carter too. man was black as night.
 
#58
#58
HSVol said:
Please provide specific reasoning why it is a media-created phenomenon.
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because "default" means that you don't pay your creditors and with nearly 200 billion coming into the treasury monthly, creditors and the servicing of the debt should be on the short list of things that get paid
 
#59
#59
MG1968 said:
because "default" means that you don't pay your creditors and with nearly 200 billion coming into the treasury monthly, creditors and the servicing of the debt should be on the short list of things that get paid
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Something, someone is still going to be unpaid as a result.

It is not an imaginary number. We're now forced to choose between our creditors or paying our other obligations. Someone and something is going to get the short end of the stick.

Glad my VA benefits come in before the 2nd.
 
#60
#60
Something else I find funny is that some people aren't ok with the Vols' football team being on par with middle-of-the-pack football teams, but they're ok with a credit rating downgrade and failure to pay our bills.

WTF???
 
#61
#61
HSVol said:
Something, someone is still going to be unpaid as a result.

It is not an imaginary number. We're now forced to choose between our creditors or paying our other obligations. Someone and something is going to get the short end of the stick.

Glad my VA benefits come in before the 2nd.
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if you're that worried about default, then you should understand that the creditors must get paid first and only Obama has talked about the military going unpaid.
 
#62
#62
MG1968 said:
if you're that worried about default, then you should understand that the creditors must get paid first and only Obama has talked about the military going unpaid.
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Why the hell shouldn't we be concerned that we can't address this situation the same way Ronald Regan addressed it?

We should balance the budget. This is a conservative axiom and is a reason I didn't vote for Bush in 2004. But to play games, yes, games, with the debt ceiling is lunacy.

Regan would never allow this to happen.
 
#63
#63
MG1968 said:
if you're that worried about default, then you should understand that the creditors must get paid first and only Obama has talked about the military going unpaid.
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exactly. only obama can make the decision to default on the debt. by law treasuries get paid first, or pretty damn close to it. he'd have to SPECIFICALLY chose to default.
 
#64
#64
I've vented. Hopefully the TP is more wise than me and the other 90% of the country. I really hope they're standing on the right side of history. I just want what is best for the country, despite my disagreement with the tactics.

The move towards balancing the budget is the right one. It's the manner in which they're holding us hostage is not, IMO.

*Note to self: Don't post when frustrated.
 
#65
#65
MG1968 said:
if I want to be condescended to, I can always poke gsvol with a stick.
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It was not my intent to condescend. Sorry if I came across that way.

The problem I see is that the divide and conquer strategy of the left is working when it comes to the TP. When the TP first started holding anti-tax/anti-big gov't rallies. The left first tried to ignore them then scoffed and made fun. Then in shock, they realized that the fiscal protests had traction with the mainstream.

The attacks then became very personal... attacking leades on any and everything.... attacking "social conservatives" within the movement... trying to paint the whole movement as "social conservative activists". Where they clearly and quickly lost the argument concerning size, scope, and purpose of gov't.... they have been successful in dividing fiscal conservatives with the latter tactics.

This isn't a grand conspiracy btw. It is the same effect that Goldberg noted in "Bias". Liberals in politics, media, and academia simply share a worldview that shades how they approach the world. They hate the TP because the people in the TP conflict with what they believe.
I "divide" myself from social conservatives because, as I've matured, I realized that what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home doesn't affect me and is none of my business.
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I agree with that completely. If I can use my speech rights to convince them otherwise then fine. If I can't... then I MUST respect their rights.

The reason I answered you is that you seemed to be writing the TP off not because of what they had actually done but because of the way they've been characterized by people who oppose them on fiscal issues.
 
#66
#66
therealUT said:
Do you think the government has the right to outlaw smoking in restaurants/bars?
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No. At least not on the federal level. I think the 10th Amendment concept allows state and local gov't to do many things that are unconstitutional for Congress. I think much of our division and antagonism over social issues stems from the application of the USC to states and localities. I know that the isolated purpose of protecting former slaves was noble... but the baby was definitely thrown out with the bath water on that one.

I think under the USC a state could literally be a social democracy... but they could not force other states to be one... and would have to compete with other states economically. Some states did start out with a "state approved religion". I wouldn't favor it but the original states had ALOT of latitude that they do not have today. Again, I like self determination and think it helps "correct" the system. States could experiment one at a time to demonstrate what works and what doesn't.

Do you think the government should be involved in marriage in any way?
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Definitely not the federal gov't. Again, states have a right through their representative legislatures to establish license laws. I am coming to a more hardened belief that gov't should get out of marriage altogether in favor of standard private contracts. However to get there, we either have to go to a flat tax with virtually no itemized exemptions or something like the Fair Tax. Otherwise, people could rightly contract marriage with a bunch of others and abuse the tax code.

Do you think a homosexual couple should be allowed to adopt a child?
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No... and yes. In as much as adoption is done by private entities, I think those entities should be able to express their values and faith. That would prevent gov't from forbidding or imposing homosexual adoption. It would basically leave it up to the mother or guardian.... as it should be.

If gov't agencies are going to do it then I do not think it is right for the standards to be determined by any other than democratic means. My preferrence would be a private system though.

Do you think evolution should be taught in public schools?
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Do you believe other models of origins should be taught in public schools?

Again, I would greatly prefer no public schools specifically because questions like this and about prayer and about values... have to be answered in a way that probably infringes on someone's rights.

In direct answer to your question, no if other models are not allowed. Yes if other models are allowed OR critical analysis of the philosophical underpinnings of evolution are part of the course.

Do you think the government has the right to tell a person what they can do with their own private land?
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ONLY to the extent that what they do with their land could do direct or in some cases indirect harm to someone else or their land. I don't think an upstream farmer has a right to use chemicals that will wash down and poision someone else's well.

FTR, I have a fairly expanded view of "property" that I think lines up decently well with the founders. Labor/income is property. Land is property. Possessions and wealth are property. Ideas are property. Plans are property.
 
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#67
#67
sjt18 said:
It was not my intent to condescend. Sorry if I came across that way.

The problem I see is that the divide and conquer strategy of the left is working when it comes to the TP. When the TP first started holding anti-tax/anti-big gov't rallies. The left first tried to ignore them then scoffed and made fun. Then in shock, they realized that the fiscal protests had traction with the mainstream.

The attacks then became very personal... attacking leades on any and everything.... attacking "social conservatives" within the movement... trying to paint the whole movement as "social conservative activists". Where they clearly and quickly lost the argument concerning size, scope, and purpose of gov't.... they have been successful in dividing fiscal conservatives with the latter tactics.

This isn't a grand conspiracy btw. It is the same effect that Goldberg noted in "Bias". Liberals in politics, media, and academia simply share a worldview that shades how they approach the world. They hate the TP because the people in the TP conflict with what they believe.


I agree with that completely. If I can use my speech rights to convince them otherwise then fine. If I can't... then I MUST respect their rights.

The reason I answered you is that you seemed to be writing the TP off not because of what they had actually done but because of the way they've been characterized by people who oppose them on fiscal issues.
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I agree that the fiscal conservative message from the TP has found a home amongst a great majority of Americans. They are driving the showdown and should be applauded for that.

But if you think that is the be all and end all of what they want to do, you are nuts.
 
#68
#68
droski said:
"implying that the administration had falsified the default deadline."

obama can decide what things he wants to pay. it is HE who will decide to default. that is not up for debate. we have plenty of cash to pay our debt.
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Obama is the one so far who has decided to let the debt limit to lapse. The House has proposed at least two pieces of legislation. One passed the House. The Dems have done absolutely nothing on the issue... yet some here are determined to blame the GOP or TP.
 
#69
#69
HSVol said:
Saying the Tea Party is all about fiscal responsibility is complete lunacy.

What is happening in Washington regarding the debt ceiling is the exact opposite of fiscal responsibility. What's fiscally responsible about not being able to pay your bills? You don't "fix" a budgetary problem of this proportion in one fell swoop. It's done incrementally, with a long term plan, without tarnishing or challenging something that makes America great. I am all for a balanced budget, but it will take a LONG time to fix. What the TP is attempting to do is to pay America's bills on its terms only. It doesn't work that way. Enjoy your Joseph McCarthy moment, TPers, because that's all you are.

A default or failure to pay our bills isn't fiscal responsibility and to insinuate otherwise is a complete joke.
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OK... since it is the fault of those who have actually passed a plan... what is the other plan we are supposed to be considering?

Incrementally? Baseline budgeting has $9+ trillion of increases already calculated in. The MOST draconian proposal by the people you blame is to cut that to around $4.5 trillion. IOW's the 10 year federal budget would grow around 5% instead of 10%.

How much more incremental do you want to be than that?
 
#70
#70
HSVol said:
If TPers want to run a country, GT FO and start your own.
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They would say the same to you since they're the ones actually agreeing with the USC principles. If you want to change the rules then go somewhere else and do it.

FTR again, this is one of the beauties of federalism that has been destroyed during the Progressive era. You should be able to move to a different state that is more in agreement with what you believe without having to leave the US.
 
#72
#72
lawgator1 said:
I agree that the fiscal conservative message from the TP has found a home amongst a great majority of Americans. They are driving the showdown and should be applauded for that.

But if you think that is the be all and end all of what they want to do, you are nuts.
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I don't know what they might do. Nor do you.

IF the day comes that they have forced a resolution of our financial problems AND returned to the small gov't principles of our founders... the federal gov't probably won't have the power to be of much effect in the social areas you seem so concerned about.
 
#73
#73
HSVol said:
Something else I find funny is that some people aren't ok with the Vols' football team being on par with middle-of-the-pack football teams, but they're ok with a credit rating downgrade and failure to pay our bills.

WTF???
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The credit rating isn't going down because of the possible default. That die was cast a long time ago due to our gov't's complete lack of fiscal discipline.
 
#74
#74
sjt18 said:
OK... since it is the fault of those who have actually passed a plan... what is the other plan we are supposed to be considering?

Incrementally? Baseline budgeting has $9+ trillion of increases already calculated in. The MOST draconian proposal by the people you blame is to cut that to around $4.5 trillion. IOW's the 10 year federal budget would grow around 5% instead of 10%.

How much more incremental do you want to be than that?
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You make legitimate points and I appreciate your response. However, I still do not agree with the current tactic. I guess my biggest problem is the timing. This Congress, with all of these TPers, approved the previous budget. Now they're refusing to allow the payment of our obligations (not just debt) that they previously passed.

All I can say is that it took 10 years to get us here and it'll probably take longer to get out of it given the current condition of the worldwide economy.
 
#75
#75
sjt18 said:
Obama is the one so far who has decided to let the debt limit to lapse. The House has proposed at least two pieces of legislation. One passed the House. The Dems have done absolutely nothing on the issue... yet some here are determined to blame the GOP or TP.
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Has a bill reached Obama's desk? Once he actually vetoes this he can be blamed.
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