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#76
#76
sjt18 said:
FTR again, this is one of the beauties of federalism that has been destroyed during the Progressive era. You should be able to move to a different state that is more in agreement with what you believe without having to leave the US.
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I live in a state that suits me just fine. I love living in the South and probably will never leave. I've lived in a lot of places and this is the place for me. It's the governance on the Federal level that bothers me and impacts everyone.
 
#77
#77
HSVol said:
You make legitimate points and I appreciate your response.
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And I apologize that my passion on this may not come across well. I am worried just like you are. We all have a lot at stake.

I just think you are blaming the police because the thief they're trying to remove from your house is pitching a fit and making you uncomfortable with threats.
However, I still do not agree with the current tactic. I guess my biggest problem is the timing. This Congress, with all of these TPers, approved the previous budget. Now they're refusing to allow the payment of our obligations (not just debt) that they previously passed.
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If you look at the history of it... they're actually reacting to being betrayed previously. They were told if they went along that real cuts would be made and that their fiscal responsibility issue would be pushed. Now the leadership of the GOP is trying to capitulate and do nothing substanative again.

All I can say is that it took 10 years to get us here and it'll probably take longer to get out of it given the current condition of the worldwide economy.
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Try 100 years. The idealism that led to the programs that have led us to the edge of financial failure began when the Progressives took over BOTH parties' leadership, media, and academia about 100 years ago.
 
#78
#78
sjt18 said:
FTR again, this is one of the beauties of federalism that has been destroyed during the Progressive era. You should be able to move to a different state that is more in agreement with what you believe without having to leave the US.
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Such as?

What values, or things "you believe in," do you have that are worth moving to another state, but which aren't already universally permitted amongst all the states?

Be specific.
 
#79
#79
HSVol said:
I live in a state that suits me just fine. I love living in the South and probably will never leave. I've lived in a lot of places and this is the place for me. It's the governance on the Federal level that bothers me and impacts everyone.
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That's my point. Federal gov't imposes a one size fits all on every state. The original design was for a small federal gov't with specific and limited functions. The broader functions of gov't were guaranteed to the states and individuals.
 
#80
#80
lawgator1 said:
Such as?

What values, or things "you believe in," do you have that are worth moving to another state, but which aren't already universally permitted amongst all the states?

Be specific.
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I would move to a state that had vouchers if the feds did not interfere with them. They have no constitutional authority to do that under the 10th Amendment. OR, maybe I would move to a state that prohibited private education.

Maybe I would move to a state with no food stamps or one with food stamps for everyone. Maybe I would move to a state with high taxes and state provided health care... or not.

Maybe I would move to a state with no speed limit... or a 55 mph one. Maybe I'd want my state to have homosexual marriage or polygamy... or not.

Maybe my state would provide direct support to farmers... or not.

It is less that states cannot do some of these things now than that the federal gov't DOES DO THEM in violation of state sovereignty under the 10th Amendment. The net result is a one size fits all approach is foisted on all of us often inviolation of what we would choose if we could choose. It also prevents the experiments of one state to be copied or avoided by other states.

Obama stated well his antagonistic position with regard to the founding principles. He wants the USC to not be interpretted as a "negative" or restricting document. The problem is that is EXACTLY how and why it was written- to restrict the federal gov't to certain things but NOT the states. Under the original design, you and those who think like you could vote to have your state governed completely different from another state. You could basically have your liberal panacea while enjoying the overarching protections of the US Gov't.
 
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#81
#81
sjt18 said:
Federal gov't imposes a one size fits all on every state. The original design was for a small federal gov't with specific and limited functions. The broader functions of gov't were guaranteed to the states and individuals.
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sjt, again I appreciate your points and tenor. This post hits the nail on the head perfectly for me.
 
#82
#82
therealUT said:
Has a bill reached Obama's desk? Once he actually vetoes this he can be blamed.
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It's almost as if you're saying he has had no hand in the process. If true, he should be summarily fired. If not true, which it isn't, his partisan charade can shoulder plenty of the blame.
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#83
#83
BigPapaVol said:
It's almost as if you're saying he has had no hand in the process. If true, he should be summarily fired. If not true, which it isn't, his partisan charade can shoulder plenty of the blame.
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He has certainly obstructed the process; however, to say that the House is not failing us because watever bill they pass will be vetoed, when they have not forced the issue by passing a bill, is ridiculous.

Why all the outrage from the Senate and the POTUS when it looked as though the Boehner bill was going to pass? They did not want to be the ones who then killed it; the GOP missed a Golden Opportunity to force their hand and blew it.
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#85
#85
therealUT said:
He has certainly obstructed the process; however, to say that the House is not failing us because watever bill they pass will be vetoed, when they have not forced the issue by passing a bill, is ridiculous.
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They did pass a bill. Reid tabled it refusing to even allow debate or amendment. I suspect Obama had influence on that decision.

Why all the outrage from the Senate and the POTUS when it looked as though the Boehner bill was going to pass? They did not want to be the ones who then killed it; the GOP missed a Golden Opportunity to force their hand and blew it.
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How so? Folks like you continue to blame them now. Plenty would continue to listen to the media and BO talking points and blame them after.

I suspect the bill will continue to be tweaked to get votes from someone.
 
#86
#86
The more Reid says it's DOA and Obama says he'll veto, the more the Dems look like they're not interested in tackling the debt problem. To say it's DOA without even a little debate, or for Obama to say he'll veto anything before Congress has even decided what's in the bill should be damning enough.

For a bill to make the Senate and it's voted down without even debate from the Dems makes them look bad.
 
#87
#87
This time, its Rick Perry. He had a rally and invited to speak at it a number of folks. I recall some on the far right here saying that associating with a church or inviting Common to the White House means Obama automatically endorses, even if indirectly, everything those people stand for.

Well, one of the people Rick Perry invited says that Oprah is a harbinger of the antichrist. Another says that the Statute of Liberty is a demonic idol because it was given to us by French Free Masons.

Rick Perry Ally: Statue of Liberty is a 'Demonic Idol' | Mother Jones

Those who don't think that the Tea Party has an undercurrent of some religious extremism, some kookiness to it, might want to take a closer look at who they associate themselves with.
 
#88
#88
lawgator1 said:
This time, its Rick Perry. He had a rally and invited to speak at it a number of folks. I recall some on the far right here saying that associating with a church or inviting Common to the White House means Obama automatically endorses, even if indirectly, everything those people stand for.

Well, one of the people Rick Perry invited says that Oprah is a harbinger of the antichrist. Another says that the Statute of Liberty is a demonic idol because it was given to us by French Free Masons.

Rick Perry Ally: Statue of Liberty is a 'Demonic Idol' | Mother Jones

Those who don't think that the Tea Party has an undercurrent of some religious extremism, some kookiness to it, might want to take a closer look at who they associate themselves with.
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who said they don't? i think the leap you make that others object to is that they are a bunch of racists.
 
#89
#89
lawgator1 said:
This time, its Rick Perry. He had a rally and invited to speak at it a number of folks. I recall some on the far right here saying that associating with a church or inviting Common to the White House means Obama automatically endorses, even if indirectly, everything those people stand for.

Well, one of the people Rick Perry invited says that Oprah is a harbinger of the antichrist. Another says that the Statute of Liberty is a demonic idol because it was given to us by French Free Masons.

Rick Perry Ally: Statue of Liberty is a 'Demonic Idol' | Mother Jones

Those who don't think that the Tea Party has an undercurrent of some religious extremism, some kookiness to it, might want to take a closer look at who they associate themselves with.
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So now politicians are defined by everyone and anyone who they have even a distant relationship to?

Nice try but no. Unless Perry sat in their churches for 20 years and called them his mentor... you have no case here.
 
#90
#90
droski said:
who said they don't? i think the leap you make that others object to is that they are a bunch of racists.
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I think some certainly are, yes. I think even more have some racial resentment that mingles with their contempt for the underclass. That's probably the much larger group, really.

The ones motivated enough to run for office and go off and pray on how to vote on a deficit reduction bill -- those are the ones I feel fairly confident in saying there is a significant racial component to their motivation, even if they have managed some subterfuge on that.

sjt18 said:
So now politicians are defined by everyone and anyone who they have even a distant relationship to?

Nice try but no. Unless Perry sat in their churches for 20 years and called them his mentor... you have no case here.
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When Obama invited Common, what did you have to say about that? In this case, Perry is inviting these loons to be speakers at his big shin dig. I'd say he thoroughly endorses what they say if he invited them.
 
#91
#91
New poll just came out has Obamas approval rating at 40%. It was at 46% on July 1st. Everyone is looking bad in this mess
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#93
#93
Obama Approval Drops to New Low of 40%

Though Americans rate Obama poorly for his handling of the situation, they are less approving of how House Speaker John Boehner and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid are handling it. Gallup does not include ratings of Congress or congressional leaders in its Daily tracking, and thus, there is no overall job approval rating of Boehner, Reid, or Congress directly comparable to Obama's current 40% overall job approval rating.
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#95
#95
droski said:
why don't you tell us? you seem to be on the pulse of joe six.
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Don't have any polling data.

I would assume that Boehner is not doing terribly well. Yesterday morning he's going on and on about what will happen when the House passes his bill tonight. Oops.

On mainstream media they are (correctly) painting him as handcuffed by the TP. Fox acknowledges this, although their spin is that the TP is being handcuffed by Boehner.

The man has no constituency.

As to Congress, generally, I am sure their numbers are in the toilet. They traditionally are. Can't see how this boondoggle is going to help them out.
 
#98
#98
lawgator1 said:
Don't have any polling data.

I would assume that Boehner is not doing terribly well. Yesterday morning he's going on and on about what will happen when the House passes his bill tonight. Oops.

On mainstream media they are (correctly) painting him as handcuffed by the TP. Fox acknowledges this, although their spin is that the TP is being handcuffed by Boehner.

The man has no constituency.

As to Congress, generally, I am sure their numbers are in the toilet. They traditionally are. Can't see how this boondoggle is going to help them out.
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Is Obama handcuffing Reid with the length of the debt ceiling extension?
 
#99
#99
BeecherVol said:
Is Obama handcuffing Reid with the length of the debt ceiling extension?
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No, Reid and Obama agree on how to move forward.

Difference is, TP insists on that which cannot be done and its Boehner's job to get passed something which can be done -- or at least something that, if it didn't get done, could be used to damage the Dems in the next elections.

Boehner realizes his plan will not pass the Senate. The whole point of passing it in the House is to set up that the Dems wouldn't go for something reasonable, and so its the Dems' fault we defaulted/lost rating/suffered more, etc.

But if Boehner has to put into too much junk too satisfy the TP members just to get it out of the House, it weakens the argument that the Dems rejected a reasonable compromise.

There is no way that the House and Senate will send to Obama a bill. The House has to go too far right in order to do that. The TPers have it in their head that they can simultaneously weaken Boehner and hurt Obama by sticking to their guns.

As is, nothing will pass. Boehner will be denuded of his authority and Cantor et al will have more power moving forward. If Obama takes action to avoid the default, they can accuse him of going beyond his powers. If he doesn't, and we default, they can blame Boehner and Obama for it. And again end up in a better position.

The gamble they take is in believing the American people are too stupid to see what they are doing. The media is trying to get the word out. But it will take some time to see if the strategy paid off.
 
#100
#100
lawgator1 said:
No, Reid and Obama agree on how to move forward.

Difference is, TP insists on that which cannot be done and its Boehner's job to get passed something which can be done -- or at least something that, if it didn't get done, could be used to damage the Dems in the next elections.

Boehner realizes his plan will not pass the Senate. The whole point of passing it in the House is to set up that the Dems wouldn't go for something reasonable, and so its the Dems' fault we defaulted/lost rating/suffered more, etc.

But if Boehner has to put into too much junk too satisfy the TP members just to get it out of the House, it weakens the argument that the Dems rejected a reasonable compromise.

There is no way that the House and Senate will send to Obama a bill. The House has to go too far right in order to do that. The TPers have it in their head that they can simultaneously weaken Boehner and hurt Obama by sticking to their guns.

As is, nothing will pass. Boehner will be denuded of his authority and Cantor et al will have more power moving forward. If Obama takes action to avoid the default, they can accuse him of going beyond his powers. If he doesn't, and we default, they can blame Boehner and Obama for it. And again end up in a better position.

The gamble they take is in believing the American people are too stupid to see what they are doing. The media is trying to get the word out. But it will take some time to see if the strategy paid off.
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So you don't think a sticking point in the senate and WH is the length of the extension?

One more.

Would Obama pass the Reid bill if it got there?
 
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