What do you think will be the most important issue in 2008, Iraq, The Economy, Health

What will be the most important issue in the 2008 presidential election?

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#26
#26
VolunteerHillbilly said:
I feel pretty good and I identify as middle class because I have to work for a living. Nobody makes someone sign a loan note that they cannot afford. Too many people out there are trying to live beyond their means. If they get pinched it's their own darn fault. About the only people that I have any sympathy for are those at the absolute lowest rung of unskilled, uneducated labor whose job opportunities have pretty much been wiped out by the illegal aliens.
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Let me get this straight. You first have no sympathy for people who made their own choices that led to financial misfortune but then sympathize with those who did the same thing about their education where the only jobs they can do are plucking chickens, picking lettuce, or laying bricks?
 
#27
#27
CSpindizzy said:
Well their feelings now are how they vote. So perception and personal feelings are all that matters when they touch the screen, pull the lever or color in a bubble.

And it doesn't matter whose fault it is. People tend to blame others for misfortune whether it is legit or not.
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I agree - just as I stated to begin with, economics is always a core issue - however, since the economy is good we are not in referendum on the economy mode (e.g. Ford/Carter era).

Conservatives will vote republican based on what they perceive republicans represent for future economic policies just as Liberals will vote democratic for the same reason.

I just don't see the economy as the big "Swing" issue -- which is really where the action is.
 
#28
#28
At some point between now and Nov. 2008 the Ds in congress are going to have to feed some red meat to their base and that will probably be all it takes to get the evangelicals back in the voting booths. The '06 midterms were determined by who did not show up, not by who did. Reading a great pro-socialist sentiment into that election would be an enormous mistake. JMO, of course.
 
#29
#29
CSpindizzy said:
Let me get this straight. You first have no sympathy for people who made their own choices that led to financial misfortune but then sympathize with those who did the same thing about their education where the only jobs they can do are plucking chickens, picking lettuce, or laying bricks?
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The people who made the educational decisions, asssuming they actually made their own choices and were not kept out of school by a parent/guardian, presumably made those decisions as children. Only adults can enter into a valid contract. So, yeah. I give some leeway to people who f'd up early in life but are struggling to make something happen, which I would probably not give to someone who makes stupid decisions as an adult.
 
#30
#30
Last I checked there are all sorts of programs for adult education. Most debt is also incurred at the 'college' age between 18-22.
 
#33
#33
Most polls show the following in order of importance:

Iraq/war on terror
healthcare
economy/jobs
illegal immigration
environment
energy
deficit
 
#34
#34
CSpindizzy said:
Last I checked there are all sorts of programs for adult education. Most debt is also incurred at the 'college' age between 18-22.
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The line has to be drawn somewhere and under our laws and customs the line falls at age 18. As to adult education programs, my sympathy for those people is not that they blew their shot at getting an education. They have my sympathies only because the government's inaction on immigration has created what I consider to be unfair competition in the unskilled labor market.
 
#35
#35
CSpindizzy said:
First car, college loans, credit cards.
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Home loans alone dwarf these items. Add in that the biggest individual source of college loan is graduate school loans - I'd say that debt comes with age (to an extent).

Where the big borrowers live - MSN Money

Debt peaks in middle age
Nationwide, the 50-59 age group had the highest average debt with $20,157, while the over-70 group held the lowest average debt with $6,500, Experian said.
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Average debt by age group in the U.S.
Age Debt Age Debt
18-29 $8,636 50-59 $20,157
30-39 $16,298 60-69 $15,964
40-49 $18,659 70+ $6,500
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#36
#36
Well if you fault the government for those poor people losing their job, you're missing out on faulting the key people responsible. Those red-blooded flag waving Americans who are increasing the demand for illegals and hiring these workers are the real culprits. I find it amusing that people toss amnesty for illegals and prosecution around over a government policy when it is actually Americans who are breaking the laws. No one dares address the key issue which is "don't hire them and the demand dries up". The illegals come here because your fellow voters and taxpayers and American citizens choose to cheat the system and cheat you by hiring these people. If the demand is there they will keep coming. Close off the borders and they will still find a way in plus you'll have about 15 million people still running around taking up the jobs.
 
#37
#37
volinbham said:
Home loans alone dwarf these items. Add in that the biggest individual source of college loan is graduate school loans - I'd say that debt comes with age (to an extent).
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You missed the point. I was referring to the age bracket that most debt is accumulated at. Home loans are scattered across the board in age brackets. Take the number of people in each bracket and the amount of debt. Even compare income to debt. This age gets hit the hardest.
 
#39
#39
CSpindizzy said:
You missed the point. I was referring to the age bracket that most debt is accumulated at. Home loans are scattered across the board in age brackets. Take the number of people in each bracket and the amount of debt. Even compare income to debt. This age gets hit the hardest.
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Read the chart I attached - it doesn't support your theory. Debt doubles in the 30-39 group from the 18-29 (notice an additional 7 years in that grouping too).
 
#40
#40
CSpindizzy said:
Well if you fault the government for those poor people losing their job, you're missing out on faulting the key people responsible. Those red-blooded flag waving Americans who are increasing the demand for illegals and hiring these workers are the real culprits. I find it amusing that people toss amnesty for illegals and prosecution around over a government policy when it is actually Americans who are breaking the laws. No one dares address the key issue which is "don't hire them and the demand dries up". The illegals come here because your fellow voters and taxpayers and American citizens choose to cheat the system and cheat you by hiring these people. If the demand is there they will keep coming. Close off the borders and they will still find a way in plus you'll have about 15 million people still running around taking up the jobs.
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I have no problem with going after the employers, although you and I both know that will require a change in federal law regarding documentation that employers are authorized/required to obtain from prospective employees. I've commented on this before, but I am in no way a member of the toss 'em out crowd. I liked the president's plan of simplified worker visas that would include a screening process. From the alien's POV it would probably be a lot cheaper and easier to go through a streamlined guest worker application process than to pay baribes and deal with coyotes south of the border. I also realize that there are huge business interests that do not want to "legalize" the illegal aliens because then they would have to worry about labor law compliance, and there would be no sword of Damacles (arrest and deportation) hanging over the workers' heads. I also realize that there is a certain element of the left leaning crowd that will not support anything short of citizenship because they are hoping for a huge new wave of government dependent voters. The whole thing has created a ridiculous stalemate and in the meantime poor Americans are getting a screw job along with a substantial number of illegal aliens who come here and work under near slave-like conditions. Eventually, I predict another round of amnesty andthen we'll be right back in the same place in another 15-20 years.
 
#41
#41
Actually it does support my theory...actually Equifax's theory. Much of the debt in that 30s range was acquired in the 20s range and has carried over. This chart does NOT show the amount of actual debt acquired in those ranges.
 
#43
#43
VolunteerHillbilly said:
I have no problem with going after the employers, although you and I both know that will require a change in federal law regarding documentation that employers are authorized/required to obtain from prospective employees.
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How do you figure laws need tobe changed? There are enough laws on the books now to bury these people under the jail but it is just easier and more politically expedient to go after the illegals rather than voters.
 
#44
#44
CSpindizzy said:
Actually it does support my theory...actually Equifax's theory. Much of the debt in that 30s range was acquired in the 20s range and has carried over. This chart does NOT show the amount of actual debt acquired in those ranges.
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It's simple math - if 18-29 has about $8500 and 30-39 has about 16,200 then on average they virtually doubled the amount (new debt!).

Also, your limit is 22 not 29 so we'd have to assume that no debt is accumulated between the ages of 22 and 29.

Finally, debt among college students is on the rise so those in their 30-39 range were likely to have lower than the current average for 18-29 y/o's


As to debt to income - bankruptcy is highest in the 40 y/o range, and second highest in the 30 y/o range.
 
#45
#45
What is the source of debt? I am talking originally acquired debt. You're talking about rolled over interest.

Bankruptcy is not widespread in the 18-22 range so your point still does not address debt to income.
 
#46
#46
Again, I quote Equifax. You can try and argue with them if you'd like. I can give you their number. Perhaps they're hiring.
 
#47
#47
CSpindizzy said:
How do you figure laws need tobe changed? There are enough laws on the books now to bury these people under the jail but it is just easier and more politically expedient to go after the illegals rather than voters.
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An employer who asks for anything more than the documentation required on an I-9 risks a discrimination lawsuit, particulalry if the applicant is not caucasian. An employer who questions an applicant's documentation faces the same threat. It's probably time for us to start encoding SS cards with a DNA marker, or a least a fingerprint, for comparison with a national database.

And I do realize that many employers hide behind the I-9 strictures.
 
#48
#48
An employer who does not report taxes on employees or does not print a 1099 risks tax evasion. That is state and federal crimes.
 
#50
#50
CSpindizzy said:
An employer who does not report taxes on employees or does not print a 1099 risks tax evasion. That is state and federal crimes.
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Many, probably most, do pay the taxes. Of course, in the contruction trade the general just pays the subcontractor who then pays his labor in cash. I think where you see the most abuse is in the traditional employment law areas: wage & hour, employment discrimination, and child labor.
 
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