What Happened to America?

#177
#177
05_never_again said:
There are always exceptions to the rule. AC overall is a shell of itself and tons of casinos have gone belly up there, not just Trump's.

Again, if you want to go after his record as a businessman, just compare his ROI since he got involved in the real estate game to the S&P or to one of any number of real estate/REIT benchmarks. He's an underperformer. He's made money, yes, but less than what a passive strategy or his real estate peers have returned on average.

Donald has always been a far better licenser, promoter, and marketer than businessman or investor.
Click to expand...

I've never seen a summary of Trump's investment holdings, but if he's not liquidated his real estate it's hard to use the S&P 500 as a benchmark. Real Estate is very unique as an investment. Often it's biggest returns come from built in tax advantages. Also leverage really needs to be considered when comparing performance to peers. A lightly leveraged real estate investment will underperform in good times and the opposite in challenging times. Highly leveraged ventures are at much greater risk of failing, but the principals enter into those arrangements fully aware of potential results as are their financial backers.

His wealth could be looked at using market value versus book value which goes in opposite directions with RE. Also, with his inherited holdings... what starting value is used? Were inheritance taxes factored into what came from his father AFTER assets passed to DT? Was his starting point his father's basis or a stepped up market value? It should also be considered how conservative the wealth strategy is. Somebody that inherits generational wealth doesn't necessarily want to blow away market averages. If I receive $100 million I'm certainly not going to be crazy risky with the bulk of it. But I might take 10%-25% and get a little crazy with it.

I laugh at the liberals when they cite bankruptcies of a small percentage of Trump's ventures (especially the low information, far Leftists on my Facebook feed) as proof that he is a failed entrepreneur. They clearly have no clue. What percentage of new businesses fail within 10 years? Probably more than half.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tennvols77, hog88 and VolStrom
#178
#178
Thunder Good-Oil said:
I've never seen a summary of Trump's investment holdings, but if he's not liquidated his real estate it's hard to use the S&P 500 as a benchmark. Real Estate is very unique as an investment. Often it's biggest returns come from built in tax advantages. Also leverage really needs to be considered when comparing performance to peers. A lightly leveraged real estate investment will underperform in good times and the opposite in challenging times. Highly leveraged ventures are at much greater risk of failing, but the principals enter into those arrangements fully aware of potential results as are their financial backers.

His wealth could be looked at using market value versus book value which goes in opposite directions with RE. Also, with his inherited holdings... what starting value is used? Were inheritance taxes factored into what came from his father AFTER assets passed to DT? Was his starting point his father's basis or a stepped up market value? It should also be considered how conservative the wealth strategy is. Somebody that inherits generational wealth doesn't necessarily want to blow away market averages. If I receive $100 million I'm certainly not going to be crazy risky with the bulk if it. But I might take 10%-25% and get a little crazy with it.

I laugh at the liberals when they cite bankruptcies of a small percentage of Trump's ventures (especially the low information, far Leftists on my Facebook feed) as proof that he is a failed entrepreneur. They clearly have no clue. What percentage of new businesses fail within 10 years? Probably more than half.
Click to expand...
The S&P definitely isn't appropriate to compare real estate to, but I brought it up because theoretically Trump could have invested the money his dad gave/loaned him in a passive way in the equity market and made a ton more money. Yes, he wouldn't have built all the stuff he ended up building, but I brought it up just for a point of comparison about his track record of an investor in general. And yes, the "...but he filed bankruptcy" is a lousy argument.

However, even when compared against RE benchmarks, his track record (as far as we can tell) is lousy. Profitable, yes, but way behind his peers, likely even when taking taxes into consideration.

How Donald Trump left $13 billion on table
 
#181
#181
hog88 said:
If you think all casinos are owned by gangsters you are well you are just being you.
Click to expand...
Most of them were until the late 70's and early 80's. How can you not know that? Ever see Casino? It's based on a real story. Bugsy and Meyer were real, too.
 
#184
#184
Purple Tiger said:
Most of them were until the late 70's and early 80's. How can you not know that? Ever see Casino? It's based on a real story. Bugsy and Meyer were real, too.
Click to expand...

What the hell does that have to do with this conversation? We're talking about events in the 90s and 2000s.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SpaceCoastVol
#186
#186
hog88 said:
What the hell does that have to do with this conversation? We're talking about events in the 90s and 2000s.
Click to expand...
I merely contradicting your DA statement of "If you think all casinos are owned by gangsters you are well you are just being you." At one time, most of them were. You are so slow you can't even keep up with your argument. Maybe it's time for a nap?
 
#187
#187
MontyPython said:
Mhmm. I voted for him... twice.

You and a lot of people are simply falling into Trump's trap of extreme partisanship.

MOST people... including me... fall within the centrist realm of politics.
Click to expand...

Trump has a 90+% approval rating with Repubs so spare me your "centrist" views.
 
  • Like
Reactions: volfanjustin
#188
#188
Purple Tiger said:
I merely contradicting your DA statement of "If you think all casinos are owned by gangsters you are well you are just being you." At one time, most of them were. You are so slow you can't even keep up with your argument. Maybe it's time for a nap?
Click to expand...

"At 1 time" democrats owned slaves. "At 1 time" the KKK was a wing of the democratic party.

Want to continue your DA argument?
 
#189
#189
Purple Tiger said:
I merely contradicting your DA statement of "If you think all casinos are owned by gangsters you are well you are just being you." At one time, most of them were. You are so slow you can't even keep up with your argument. Maybe it's time for a nap?
Click to expand...
Why aren't you at work? Nap time is only for the rich and retired.
 
#190
#190
hog88 said:
"At 1 time" democrats owned slaves. "At 1 time" the KKK was a wing of the democratic party.

Want to continue your DA argument?
Click to expand...
No, because I do not GAF about anything you say. You continue to harass me like an unceasingly barking little dog.
 
#192
#192
Thunder Good-Oil said:
I've never seen a summary of Trump's investment holdings, but if he's not liquidated his real estate it's hard to use the S&P 500 as a benchmark. Real Estate is very unique as an investment. Often it's biggest returns come from built in tax advantages. Also leverage really needs to be considered when comparing performance to peers. A lightly leveraged real estate investment will underperform in good times and the opposite in challenging times. Highly leveraged ventures are at much greater risk of failing, but the principals enter into those arrangements fully aware of potential results as are their financial backers.

His wealth could be looked at using market value versus book value which goes in opposite directions with RE. Also, with his inherited holdings... what starting value is used? Were inheritance taxes factored into what came from his father AFTER assets passed to DT? Was his starting point his father's basis or a stepped up market value? It should also be considered how conservative the wealth strategy is. Somebody that inherits generational wealth doesn't necessarily want to blow away market averages. If I receive $100 million I'm certainly not going to be crazy risky with the bulk of it. But I might take 10%-25% and get a little crazy with it.

I laugh at the liberals when they cite bankruptcies of a small percentage of Trump's ventures (especially the low information, far Leftists on my Facebook feed) as proof that he is a failed entrepreneur. They clearly have no clue. What percentage of new businesses fail within 10 years? Probably more than half.
Click to expand...

Trump still has from half a billion to a billion dollars of debt on NYC properties according to Bloomberg. It would be interesting to see his total debt and real net worth.
 
#195
#195
05_never_again said:
The S&P definitely isn't appropriate to compare real estate to, but I brought it up because theoretically Trump could have invested the money his dad gave/loaned him in a passive way in the equity market and made a ton more money. Yes, he wouldn't have built all the stuff he ended up building, but I brought it up just for a point of comparison about his track record of an investor in general. And yes, the "...but he filed bankruptcy" is a lousy argument.

However, even when compared against RE benchmarks, his track record (as far as we can tell) is lousy. Profitable, yes, but way behind his peers, likely even when taking taxes into consideration.

How Donald Trump left $13 billion on table
Click to expand...

Real estate is hard to evaluate. As I previously mentioned, leverage and taxes need to be considered. Also, much of the information isn't transparent... especially if comparisons are with publicly traded REITs. Also, management is going to take different approaches depending on whose money is at risk. Trump often has his personal holdings at risk while his peers might be run by CEOs not putting their own assets into play. Risk tolerances are different. Then also, what is being evaluated? The value of each project or the change in wealth of each investor? There are all sorts of variables and non-public information involved. Real Estate is also not highly liquid (other than REIT shares) and the timing of deals is highly dependant on uncontrollable macro economic conditions. Additionally, real estate ventures of developing, renovating, renting, and simply speculating are all very different approaches. But liberals ignore all of that and beat on the bankruptcy drum... most of them are ill informed and are easily triggered by the BK narrative.

You've also pointed out that he'd also evolved into more of a brand, licensor, and personality instead of a pure real estate operator. Diversification is a sound practice by smart business people. He might have been better off financially by cashing out large chunks of his investments and passively investing the proceeds in publicly traded securities, but that's not who he is. He tried the Trump branded airline, casinos, wine, steaks, etc. and I wouldn't find fault with taking those shots. With some of them he might have just rented his name to the promoters of the businesses.

I'd never consider him to be a failure as a business man. The larger the net worth, the harder it is to grow. Also with the scale, there are always going to be unhappy participants along the way and lawyers ready to claim somebody was cheated. Often it's cheaper to just pay them to go away as a cost of doing business rather than to litigate a valid reason to, for example, withhold payments to subs or other vendors for doing poor work.

I'm not necessarily a Trump red hatter, but the constant noise coming from the left has me not taking much of anything that they squawk about as valid concerns. Especially when the media is on board with their opinion based, rather than unbiased, investigative "reporting".
 
  • Like
Reactions: tennvols77 and midnight orange
#196
#196
Purple Tiger said:
Trump still has from half a billion to a billion dollars of debt on NYC properties according to Bloomberg. It would be interesting to see his total debt and real net worth.
Click to expand...

Leverage is one of the fundamental aspects of real estate. 100% debt free real estate investments will almost always have insignificant returns. Deals are even sometimes arranged with 100% debt financing and 0% equity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tennvols77
#197
#197
NorthDallas40 said:
I’ll go on record stating don’t respect the POTUS. In fact I’ll offer go ahead and bash him. I think he’s earned that.

However being continually obstructionist just to spite him and via him being proxy the country instead of working with him is beyond ridiculous.

And I’ll end by stating this applies to both parties.
Click to expand...

Having been a reformed leftist myself, I believe there is more obstruction on the left than the right. The left makes more decisions out of emotions. The right tends to be more pragmatic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: volfanjustin
#198
#198
Weezer said:
Very true. You don't make it to the top of a Fortune 500 company being nice, or even ethical. All kinds of skeletons rattling in those closets.
Click to expand...
Very few do. I'm thinking you probably don't know anyone personally or you wouldn't wouldn't make such an ignorant statement. You can't ascend to the top of most Fortune 500's being anything but ethical. If you're being recruited to be a top manager, it's one of the first things that is vetted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Purple Tiger
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top