What Happened to America?

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Very few do. I'm thinking you probably don't know anyone personally or you wouldn't wouldn't make such an ignorant statement. You can't ascend to the top of most Fortune 500's being anything but ethical. If you're being recruited to be a top manager, it's one of the first things that is vetted.

I tend to disagree. Enron, Tyco, Worldcom, Global Crossing are just a few that were run by crooks... let alone unethical executives. An entire international accounting firm that audited maybe hundreds of S&P 500 companies failed due to their widespread corrupt and unethical practices. The appearance of ethical leaders is the norm.

 

[KB5252]

Trump ran on a platform of hyperpartisanship. He possesses virtually no leadership skills (other than if Obama did it = bad), and instead has generally reacted to challenges by pitting Americans against one another.

Unlike RINO Trump, a real Republican, George W. Bush, said it best after Donald's insane, dystopian inaugural speech:

"Well, that was some weird sh*t."

Yes. Yes it has been.

Obama was only part of the reason Trump was elected. The fact the Democrats ran quite possibly the most unlikable, unauthentic, perfect example of the establishment political quagmire this country stuffers from was no small part of getting Trump elected. They learned nothing and are attempting to trot out the next worse thing the Democrats could find.

I'm no Trump supporter but if Biden is the only other choice I'd have to stick with what we already have.

The current political situation we have is troubling to say the least.

 

[MontyPython]

Obama was only part of the reason Trump was elected. The fact the Democrats ran quite possibly the most unlikable, unauthentic, perfect example of the establishment political quagmire this country stuffers from was no small part of getting Trump elected. They learned nothing and are attempting to trot out the next worse thing the Democrats could find.

I'm no Trump supporter but if Biden is the only other choice I'd have to stick with what we already have.

The current political situation we have is troubling to say the least.

You speak the truth.

I held my nose big time when I voted for HRC. I despised her when she was first lady, and always thought she was the epitome of a power-hungry jerk-wad. But, having said that, Trump was a non-starter. Really, the system has failed and is failing. The binary choice of these two dudes who are half way in the grave to start out with is... bad.

 

[zeppelin128]

Obama was only part of the reason Trump was elected. The fact the Democrats ran quite possibly the most unlikable, unauthentic, perfect example of the establishment political quagmire this country stuffers from was no small part of getting Trump elected. They learned nothing and are attempting to trot out the next worse thing the Democrats could find.

I'm no Trump supporter but if Biden is the only other choice I'd have to stick with what we already have.

The current political situation we have is troubling to say the least.

The main factors at play in 2016 in my opinion:
-backlash against President Obama for existing. A small minority, but they voted.
-anger, which always leads to populist/nationalist candidates (not a good thing). Prime ground for Trump's hateful, rage filled style of politics to take hold.
-Trump stoking that fear and anger with a populist/nationalistic message. Us vs. them mentality, "taking America back", "back in the good old days", basically anything anti-Trump becomes anti-American. It was an effective strategy.
-a baggage laden, generally hated candidate in HRC that was arrogant enough to not campaign in the Rust Belt
-unclear messaging from HRC
-voter apathy on the Left
-Russia shenanigans
-(hopefully) the last dying gasps of the super right wing factions in the GOP hoping for a whole host of regressive policies

I'm probably leaving stuff out. But I think the main thing was anger, and Trump works that emotion very effectively with his supporters.

 

[GoBigOrangeUT]

Trump has a 90+% approval rating with Repubs so spare me your "centrist" views.

Just in: people who voted for guy approve of guy. More at 11.

 

[Matt2496]

Borrowed from a friend but is absolutely 100% truth....

What happened to America? The America I know would have helped you build your house, helped you plow your fields, raise your barn, and lifted you up in any way they could. Even the smallest gesture was one of love and kindness when people in the community were in need.

Now Americans want you to fail. They pride themselves in standing in your path, being an obstacle, and having a role, ANY ROLE, in taking you down.

This whole concept and narrative of "if you are not with us, you are against us and therefore the enemy" has got to stop. It is truly unAmerican.

The left loves to use the fallacy of Arguing to Emotion. They know emotion can "win" every time (in their own minds). They love to shame you because you dont care about 80,000 deaths enough to stay home and wear a mask. Yet they did not give one *** about 66,000 deaths last year, and every year before it as evidenced by no Stay at Home and not wearing masks. They will also not do it again next year.

All of this is optics and the left loves optics...well except when it comes to Joe Biden.

I don't think it's strictly a left-wing thing. I've seen righties on social media shame others for not wearing masks.

Also, Republican ran states have been enforcing tyrannical COVID-19 edicts.

 

[KB5252]

The main factors at play in 2016 in my opinion:
-backlash against President Obama for existing. A small minority, but they voted.
-anger, which always leads to populist/nationalist candidates (not a good thing). Prime ground for Trump's hateful, rage filled style of politics to take hold.
-Trump stoking that fear and anger with a populist/nationalistic message. Us vs. them mentality, "taking America back", "back in the good old days", basically anything anti-Trump becomes anti-American. It was an effective strategy.
-a baggage laden, generally hated candidate in HRC that was arrogant enough to not campaign in the Rust Belt
-unclear messaging from HRC
-voter apathy on the Left
-Russia shenanigans
-(hopefully) the last dying gasps of the super right wing factions in the GOP hoping for a whole host of regressive policies

I'm probably leaving stuff out. But I think the main thing was anger, and Trump works that emotion very effectively with his supporters.

Trump isn't super right wing though.

 

[KB5252]

I don't think it's strictly a left-wing thing. I've seen righties on social media shame others for not wearing masks.

Also, Republican ran states have been enforcing tyrannical COVID-19 edicts.

Democrat run states have been much more tyrannical, and it's not even close.

 

[zeppelin128]

Trump isn't super right wing though.

That portion of the electorate voted for him in droves.

 

[Matt2496]

Democrat run states have been much more tyrannical, and it's not even close.

Certainly. But there have been some incidents in R states.

 

[KB5252]

That portion of the electorate voted for him in droves.

Because he was the the Republican candidate. Not because Trump was some ultra right winger.

And there was a call from the country to be more nationalistic. Obama got to much flack from the right but in some cases it was warranted to some degree. His foreign policy left a lot to be desired but he did have to contend with correcting prior mistakes in this arena, I just believe he did poorly as well, overcorrecting in the opposite direction more or less.

 

[zeppelin128]

Because he was the the Republican candidate. Not because Trump was some ultra right winger.

And there was a call from the country to be more nationalistic. Obama got to much flack from the right but in some cases it was warranted to some degree. His foreign policy left a lot to be desired but he did have to contend with correcting prior mistakes in this arena, I just believe he did poorly as well, overcorrecting in the opposite direction more or less.

That's a fair critique. I thought Obama handled Syria terribly. I'd mark that as the biggest stain on his legacy.

 

[KB5252]

That's a fair critique. I thought Obama handled Syria terribly. I'd mark that as the biggest stain on his legacy.

That is the glaring example. I'm satisfied he kept us out of conflict. But I hate that he drew a line and then allowed us to get smacked around with no response or consequence, best not to draw a line if you won't flex.

There are more examples but those really don't matter to this discussion.

 

[zeppelin128]

That is the glaring example. I'm satisfied he kept us out of conflict. But I hate that he drew a line and then allowed us to get smacked around with no response or consequence, best not to draw a line if you won't flex.

There are more examples but those really don't matter to this discussion.

Agreed. I was alluding to the Red Line comment as well. You don't make that kind of statement and then do nothing.

 

[Orangeburst]

That's a fair critique. I thought Obama handled Syria terribly. I'd mark that as the biggest stain on his legacy.

The biggest stain on his legacy is the Russian hoax. It has changed politics forever so never forget.

 

[tennvols77]

Very few do. I'm thinking you probably don't know anyone personally or you wouldn't wouldn't make such an ignorant statement. You can't ascend to the top of most Fortune 500's being anything but ethical. If you're being recruited to be a top manager, it's one of the first things that is vetted.

Your statement, just as his, is a generalization, and the truth lies all over the spectrum and somewhere off center in the grey. You get all types. But, ruthless and unethical is rampid in big business, just, as it is not in big business......... Different markets, industries, services, can offer different cultures and behind the scenes games played.

Example, food chemical and ingredients markets. Collusion is real, price setting and gauging is real, and if you think ethics are applied to a standard as they would/should be in a lot of corporate America, you'd be getting your ethical arse handed to you by these people if you were trying to compete.

Just as in life, all types, all things imaginable and unimaginable.

You're both right. Big business is a big game, and stress, self preservation, time, timing, circumstance and situation and the reactions to the decisions needing to be made under all pressures and dollar values can, and do, lead to a lot of things that could be deemed unethical, borderline illegal. Good people make bad decisions. But, there are also just "bad" unethical people out there, and there are more than you would realize.

 

[hog88]

Your statement, just as his, is a generalization, and the truth lies all over the spectrum and somewhere off center in the grey. You get all types. But, ruthless and unethical is rampid in big business, just, as it is not in big business......... Different markets, industries, services, can offer different cultures and behind the scenes games played.

Example, food chemical and ingredients markets. Collusion is real, price setting and gauging is real, and if you think ethics are applied to a standard as they would/should be in a lot of corporate America, you'd be getting your ethical arse handed to you by these people if you were trying to compete.

Just as in life, all types, all things imaginable and unimaginable.

You're both right. Big business is a big game, and stress, self preservation, time, timing, circumstance and situation and the reactions to the decisions needing to be made under all pressures and dollar values can, and do, lead to a lot of things that could be deemed unethical, borderline illegal. Good people make bad decisions. But, there are also just "bad" unethical people out there, and there are more than you would realize.

Business ethics is a very loosely defined term. What is ethical to me you may find reprehensible and that's ok.

 

[05_never_again]

That's a fair critique. I thought Obama handled Syria terribly. I'd mark that as the biggest stain on his legacy.

It's easily the statements he made surrounding ACA and how that bill was passed.

 

[zeppelin128]

It's easily the statements he made surrounding ACA and how that bill was passed.

I'm trying to be fair. Not just "muh Obama" with his tan suit and Dijon mustard.

 

[05_never_again]

I'm trying to be fair. Not just "muh Obama" with his tan suit and Dijon mustard.

His infamous Syria "red line" statement wasn't ideal, but it's such a small issue in the realm of our foreign policy blunders.

Obama's presidency, IMO, I think will ultimately go down in history as being relatively inconsequential. The thing he'll be most remembered for, other than being the first black president, is ACA. ACA is a highly controversial piece of legislation on its own merits, passed in a purely partisan way (not good for legacy-building), and its Constitutional justification was argued in a pretty controversial way. Big parts of it were undone more or less very soon after he left office. Hence why that will be the biggest stain on his legacy.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

That portion of the electorate voted for him in droves.

Well that's earth shattering analysis.. Kind of like saying the progressives will vote for Biden in droves in this election