What I Learned from Plain English

[LouderVol]

This is my favorite podcast. It's not political in nature, but because it covers current events (usually less serious stuff, like tech and medicine), its episodes have political implications. Tons of interesting conversations that need a resting place here on VN.

This one was really interesting:

- In 1984?, 31% of HS grad girls were graduating college and 38% of boys. In 2024, it's 51% and 38% respectively.
- political lines among the young are not dividing by race/gender, so much as college educated vs. not.
- specifically, working class males are falling behind
- both groups (educated vs. not) are rejecting institutions*, but this is negatively impacting working class males because of a lack of neededness
- suicide (up 40% since 2000) and accidental over-doses are on the rise because of this...we've had an extra 400k men this century fall prey to accidental over-dose. They point out that this is like fighting a world war a century ago.
- labor force participation among young males is down. Disability claims are way up. They're living with their parents. Etc.
- the Biden administration passed economic legislation designed specifically to help this group get on their feet. But their messaging basically never includes men. They're afraid to include men for fear of appearing anti-women, or something. And that is a big reason why young men are done with D's.
- cultural ideals determine politics moreso than economic factors

And I remember several times I've heard people claim that the suicide rate among LGBTQ teens explains that there is something wrong with LGBTQ teens. I always countered that this has more to do with how they feel within society rather than anything inherent to being LGBTQ. I would say the realities now faced by young, working class males perfectly illustrate the role this acceptance mechanism plays.

*marriage, children, church, government, scouting, little league...they talked about how there are fewer coaches. 27% of teachers now are male. In so many ways, men feel and demonstrate with their actions that they feel needed less.

America’s Young Men Are Falling Behind—and Shifting Right

Richard Reeves joins Derek to talk about the state of men and what’s really happening with the gender divide in politics

www.theringer.com

at least in the quotes in the article, they don't make the distinction that it is working men, vs the educated men, that are leading the increase in the rates of suicide amongst men.

and in their talks it made it sound more like an issue amongst the educated men when it came to the economic needed-ness. Its hard to say you are underemployed if you don't have an education. and most blue collar work is most definitely needed right now. I mean maybe its not spoken and that's the difference, but it is needed. while someone with a degree but working starbucks or whatever is definitely not needed, nor spoken like its needed.

and personally I fell into that category of educated, but unneeded in all of those categories, and it definitely drove my attempt to killing myself. so maybe its just some trauma or confirmation bias on my part. getting a job in my field, and being able to financially support myself were HUGE to my mental state.

 

[sonofUT62]

This is my favorite podcast. It's not political in nature, but because it covers current events (usually less serious stuff, like tech and medicine), its episodes have political implications. Tons of interesting conversations that need a resting place here on VN.

This one was really interesting:

- In 1984?, 31% of HS grad girls were graduating college and 38% of boys. In 2024, it's 51% and 38% respectively.
- political lines among the young are not dividing by race/gender, so much as college educated vs. not.
- specifically, working class males are falling behind
- both groups (educated vs. not) are rejecting institutions*, but this is negatively impacting working class males because of a lack of neededness
- suicide (up 40% since 2000) and accidental over-doses are on the rise because of this...we've had an extra 400k men this century fall prey to accidental over-dose. They point out that this is like fighting a world war a century ago.
- labor force participation among young males is down. Disability claims are way up. They're living with their parents. Etc.
- the Biden administration passed economic legislation designed specifically to help this group get on their feet. But their messaging basically never includes men. They're afraid to include men for fear of appearing anti-women, or something. And that is a big reason why young men are done with D's.
- cultural ideals determine politics moreso than economic factors

And I remember several times I've heard people claim that the suicide rate among LGBTQ teens explains that there is something wrong with LGBTQ teens. I always countered that this has more to do with how they feel within society rather than anything inherent to being LGBTQ. I would say the realities now faced by young, working class males perfectly illustrate the role this acceptance mechanism plays.

*marriage, children, church, government, scouting, little league...they talked about how there are fewer coaches. 27% of teachers now are male. In so many ways, men feel and demonstrate with their actions that they feel needed less.

America’s Young Men Are Falling Behind—and Shifting Right

Richard Reeves joins Derek to talk about the state of men and what’s really happening with the gender divide in politics

www.theringer.com

Watch advertising today which depicts women as bright and capable and men as weak and stupid. Imagine the uproar if Dr Pepper had created a commercial where the girl had to be the mascot because she couldn't throw straight.

 

[n_huffhines]

at least in the quotes in the article, they don't make the distinction that it is working men, vs the educated men, that are leading the increase in the rates of suicide amongst men.

and in their talks it made it sound more like an issue amongst the educated men when it came to the economic needed-ness. Its hard to say you are underemployed if you don't have an education. and most blue collar work is most definitely needed right now. I mean maybe its not spoken and that's the difference, but it is needed. while someone with a degree but working starbucks or whatever is definitely not needed, nor spoken like its needed.

and personally I fell into that category of educated, but unneeded in all of those categories, and it definitely drove my attempt to killing myself. so maybe its just some trauma or confirmation bias on my part. getting a job in my field, and being able to financially support myself were HUGE to my mental state.

Damn, dude. Sorry you went through that and proof it can happen to anybody.

TBH, I don't even remember them specifically talking about "economic" neededness. I thought that was all about social.

 

[n_huffhines]

@LouderVol i can't find current rates for educated vs. Non-educated. I found a study thru 2013 that showed significantly higher among uneducated, but a lot has happened in the last 11 years. I did find this that shows a significant difference between rural and urban, which isn't the same thing but it's gonna segment pretty well along those lines

Male Suicide: Patterns and Recent Trends - American Institute for Boys and Men

A look at male suicide patterns by age, race, geography and over time.

aibm.org

 

[LouderVol]

I was actually having some similar discussions with my GF in the car about this to and from the game on Saturday. Two things I noticed in the conversation was that 1. a lot of the problems, the needed-ness in the article, was present and similar in both of our lives. 2. the way society handles the issues is different based on the gender.

it does touch into the foundation of the resentment class that LG brings up, but its kinda the fault of those men, myself included, that it got to that point to be an issue. Men have been made the bad guys, and the escape goats, and have seen their roles shift. but just because that exists or happens, doesn't mean it needs to turn to resentment or anger, and certainly not to the political or national level.

from the conversation with the GF, so very anecdotal, it seems that women is more likely to externalize an issue, aka its someone else's fault. while men tend to internalize issues, aka I am not good enough. and right now society and government feed those ideas, its the men's fault, men blame themselves, and women get to blame the men. Doesn't apply to every one or in every situation, but trends I have seen and heard in therapy and in talking with other people struggling with depression and suicide. And it doesn't mean its true, actually the men's fault, but there is some messaging there that reinforces it that mindset. I think a lot of it is unintentional, I laugh at the complaints about men in commercials, but its naive to say that doesn't have AN impact.

but with mental health there is a ton of "if you believe, its real". especially if you are going thru things already and not in a good mental place. as someone, men in the conversation, internalizes issues, and hears a message enough times, they will begin to believe it, and live it.

and society and our upraising don't teach us how to handle it. so two unhealthy options are more common than they should be. Resentment of the "message", or acceptance of the "message" that leads to more mental health, suicide included, issues.

I think a key thing with me was taking the "criticisms" I was hearing, and instead of taking it personal and assuming something was wrong with me; or thinking that society is saying something is wrong with me, was to instead take it to improve myself. with any criticism from outsiders who don't know you, there are going to be bad/false critiques, things that aren't issues. but just because SOME of the critique is wrong doesn't mean it all is. Same thing with being a man in the resentment category, just because they are saying SOME things are wrong, doesn't mean they actually mean EVERYTHING is wrong. they just suck at messaging in a manner that we understand.

It needs to change from "men are bad" to "men can improve in some specific categories" while also recognizing that men shouldn't all be expected to change in every category. when dealing with the mental health aspect of it, you do have to take some of that responsibility of setting your own boundaries, and as men that should be fine as a "manly" role, to set that level. its not 100%, nor is it 0%. you can't fix it all at once, but you can make some small steps that help with your mental health. help you become the man you should be, however manly that is, above or below the societal threshold.

 

[LouderVol]

Damn, dude. Sorry you went through that and proof it can happen to anybody.

TBH, I don't even remember them specifically talking about "economic" neededness. I thought that was all about social.

economic was probably my paraphrasing, I will look up there exact terminology. they mentioned three categories of neededness, and it was the third.

* found the part, it was in one of the sections from Thomas: "And maybe what you’re describing as needed-ness is a stand-in for or a kind of synonym for a sense of personal success that I am—I feel like I am economically worthy because I’m working in a job that I see as meaningful, and I’m earning money from that job that makes my life comfortable."

 

[n_huffhines]

BTW, same pod but no political relevance at all, I found this episode to be especially inspiring.

This guy has done a ton of research and he's convinced that for every minute that we exercise, we add 5 minutes to our lives. This sounds wild as hell, but I did the math I think it was 40 minutes a day over 40 years was something like 5 extra years of life, which is believable. That's pretty inspiring to me, especially since the quality of life will be better, too.

"Exercise May Be the Single Most Potent Medical Intervention Ever Known"

Euan Ashley joins Derek to discuss the benefits of exercise and our current scientific understanding of why it helps

www.theringer.com

 

[n_huffhines]

I was actually having some similar discussions with my GF in the car about this to and from the game on Saturday. Two things I noticed in the conversation was that 1. a lot of the problems, the needed-ness in the article, was present and similar in both of our lives. 2. the way society handles the issues is different based on the gender.

it does touch into the foundation of the resentment class that LG brings up, but its kinda the fault of those men, myself included, that it got to that point to be an issue. Men have been made the bad guys, and the escape goats, and have seen their roles shift. but just because that exists or happens, doesn't mean it needs to turn to resentment or anger, and certainly not to the political or national level.

from the conversation with the GF, so very anecdotal, it seems that women is more likely to externalize an issue, aka its someone else's fault. while men tend to internalize issues, aka I am not good enough. and right now society and government feed those ideas, its the men's fault, men blame themselves, and women get to blame the men. Doesn't apply to every one or in every situation, but trends I have seen and heard in therapy and in talking with other people struggling with depression and suicide. And it doesn't mean its true, actually the men's fault, but there is some messaging there that reinforces it that mindset. I think a lot of it is unintentional, I laugh at the complaints about men in commercials, but its naive to say that doesn't have AN impact.

but with mental health there is a ton of "if you believe, its real". especially if you are going thru things already and not in a good mental place. as someone, men in the conversation, internalizes issues, and hears a message enough times, they will begin to believe it, and live it.

and society and our upraising don't teach us how to handle it. so two unhealthy options are more common than they should be. Resentment of the "message", or acceptance of the "message" that leads to more mental health, suicide included, issues.

I think a key thing with me was taking the "criticisms" I was hearing, and instead of taking it personal and assuming something was wrong with me; or thinking that society is saying something is wrong with me, was to instead take it to improve myself. with any criticism from outsiders who don't know you, there are going to be bad/false critiques, things that aren't issues. but just because SOME of the critique is wrong doesn't mean it all is. Same thing with being a man in the resentment category, just because they are saying SOME things are wrong, doesn't mean they actually mean EVERYTHING is wrong. they just suck at messaging in a manner that we understand.

It needs to change from "men are bad" to "men can improve in some specific categories" while also recognizing that men shouldn't all be expected to change in every category. when dealing with the mental health aspect of it, you do have to take some of that responsibility of setting your own boundaries, and as men that should be fine as a "manly" role, to set that level. its not 100%, nor is it 0%. you can't fix it all at once, but you can make some small steps that help with your mental health. help you become the man you should be, however manly that is, above or below the societal threshold.

My wife was talking about how it's hard to be a woman in today's world because of all the expectations there are for them (career, motherhood, homemaker, etc.) and I usually let her do this, but this one time I said, "you know, there are a lot of expectations of men, too." And she said, "like what?" not in a confrontational way at all, but in like a way where she had never considered that. I was flabbergasted, but that is kind of the nature of things.

A few days later, I saw an Instagram reel of a guy asking women in the street, "Is a man less of a man if he can't change a car tire." and every response was a shrug + yes, and then they were all asked, "If you can't cook dinner from scratch, are you less of a woman." It perfectly illustrates our culture right now. Men are sort of forgotten.

But, I know why it has happened and the catalysts are good things. Women should be more educated and have careers if they want them. That's a big cause of all this. They don't need men as much. They're increasingly gay, so not looking for a male partner at all. And educated females (a growing segment) are looking for educated males. This is a big reason why men are not getting married and having kids.

The other reason, and I know people are going to hate bringing this up, but toxic masculinity is a big reason. To be clear, being masculine is not toxic. That's not what it means. They mean specific manifestations of masculinity are toxic (like an aggressive personality), and you can easily say toxic femininity can be a thing (like withholding sex from a partner, or using it for manipulation). It's not our fkn fault. Watching the Vince McMahon documentary, it's crazy to see what we were raised on, culturally. We thought we were good guys because we weren't as bad as the crap we saw on MTV, etc. but I can't believe some of the stuff we used to do. I really like the way I turned out, but I hate myself ages 22-25. We just thought we were supposed to be providers, protectors, and present and we'd be man of the year. Emotionally intelligent people are looking for way more than that. It seems like over night, expectations changed.

 

[BernardKingGOAT]

Agreed, but make it a priority in high school. When I taught math students could leave and go take classes at the community college.

Why isn’t that an option with trade school? Juniors who have completed x number of credits, let them be still considered a high school student (so they don’t miss their SR prom, can participate in sports, etc), and use what the state would pay for them to go to high school as a voucher with the local trade schools

We have local HS kids doing it. There is a newer tech school here and a group of HS kids attend in the afternoon. Some were just awarded jobs at Nissan, starting when they graduate in May

 

[LouderVol]

My wife was talking about how it's hard to be a woman in today's world because of all the expectations there are for them (career, motherhood, homemaker, etc.) and I usually let her do this, but this one time I said, "you know, there are a lot of expectations of men, too." And she said, "like what?" not in a confrontational way at all, but in like a way where she had never considered that. I was flabbergasted, but that is kind of the nature of things.

A few days later, I saw an Instagram reel of a guy asking women in the street, "Is a man less of a man if he can't change a car tire." and every response was a shrug + yes, and then they were all asked, "If you can't cook dinner from scratch, are you less of a woman." It perfectly illustrates our culture right now. Men are sort of forgotten.

But, I know why it has happened and the catalysts are good things. Women should be more educated and have careers if they want them. That's a big cause of all this. They don't need men as much. They're increasingly gay, so not looking for a male partner at all. And educated females (a growing segment) are looking for educated males. This is a big reason why men are not getting married and having kids.

The other reason, and I know people are going to hate bringing this up, but toxic masculinity is a big reason. To be clear, being masculine is not toxic. That's not what it means. They mean specific manifestations of masculinity are toxic (like an aggressive personality), and you can easily say toxic femininity can be a thing (like withholding sex from a partner, or using it for manipulation). It's not our fkn fault. Watching the Vince McMahon documentary, it's crazy to see what we were raised on, culturally. We thought we were good guys because we weren't as bad as the crap we saw on MTV, etc. but I can't believe some of the stuff we used to do. I really like the way I turned out, but I hate myself ages 22-25. We just thought we were supposed to be providers, protectors, and present and we'd be man of the year. Emotionally intelligent people are looking for way more than that. It seems like over night, expectations changed.

The biggest difference we saw in the gender patterns that I couldn't counter is that women have an added biological clock that men don't have. so our timelines can be much more fluid and thus less of a stress inducer than it is for women. If they want babies they need to be done by 40. men can keep popping them out, yeah its a lot different raising a child that is more than 40 years younger, but its possible. most women aren't going to capable, and it certainly increases risk.

on the flip side I told her it was very much expected that I should be able to take care myself, and my family. while that is not a pressure on her, even in the feminists world. in that world the woman takes care of herself and does what she wants, almost to the explicit detriment of the man, and not even much focus on the family. There was a lot of things she was questioning how it would work/should work; and to me I wasn't constantly saying "I thought that was the man's job".

I think a lot of it goes back to how we were raised. My dad was a positive influence on me and my family, so we don't associate masculinity with any implicit negatives. similar with my mom and femininity. but in too many lives there is no positive male influence, so it becomes a lot easier to only associate masculinity with the negative aspects of the missing father. and a lot of that is on the dad. yeah mom's will push you out and can be crappy, but you should always be there to take care of your kids and be a positive part of the family, even if its two households. and that goes far beyond just financial investments.

I agree about the toxic part. both do it, and I wasn't really aware of the feminine side of it until I got serious about dating. Definitely more manipulation out there than I thought. but I think what is missed in the message is that distinction you made. Toxic masculinity vs masculinity. Currently most of society has that as the same thing, but really its not that way. that was one of the affirmations my GF gave me, saying she had never dated a "manly" person that wasn't a douche. she thought they were linked, and I was raised it was the opposite, being a "gentleman" was part of being a man and being manly.

 

[KB5252]

We have local HS kids doing it. There is a newer tech school here and a group of HS kids attend in the afternoon. Some were just awarded jobs at Nissan, starting when they graduate in May

The small unit school my daughter guess to does this as well. You can attend trade or nursing schools if you have the credits and are in good academic standing.

A lot of kids doing welding or HVAC and nursing is huge. Good option for kids who don't want or need to go to traditional 4 year. Some of those kids will be making pretty good money with a year out of high school.

 

[hog88]

Man, you guys think too much

 

[BernardKingGOAT]

The small unit school my daughter guess to does this as well. You can attend trade or nursing schools if you have the credits and are in good academic standing.

A lot of kids doing welding or HVAC and nursing is huge. Good option for kids who don't want it need to go to traditional 4 year. Some of those kids will be pretty good money with a year out of high school.

Making close to 50K, plus Nissan will pay tuition if they decide at some point to start taking college classes

 

[superdave1984]

There's a lot of money to be made in the trades. Actually necessary, useful and need skills too. An 'Educated" person specializing in African American Literature doesn't have any usefulness. Trade schools should be a priority.

I think the day is coming when plumbers will make more than most college grads. He k they probably do already. I think we are fast approaching a day when PreK-12 teachers make more than most other college grads simply because nobody is signing up to out up with thay crap for the pay they get now. Some states force teachers to get a Masters soon after getting hired but still pay them well under what someone with a Masters should be getting. Compare the salary of a teacher with a Masters to someone with a Masters in cybersecurity. Unless you get into school administration, you get paid badly and put up with a ton of crap.

 

[n_huffhines]

I think the day is coming when plumbers will make more than most college grads. He k they probably do already. I think we are fast approaching a day when PreK-12 teachers make more than most other college grads simply because nobody is signing up to out up with thay crap for the pay they get now. Some states force teachers to get a Masters soon after getting hired but still pay them well under what someone with a Masters should be getting. Compare the salary of a teacher with a Masters to someone with a Masters in cybersecurity. Unless you get into school administration, you get paid badly and put up with a ton of crap.

It's already here. My plumber billed $250/hr last week.

 

[dalton_vol]

This is my favorite podcast. It's not political in nature, but because it covers current events (usually less serious stuff, like tech and medicine), its episodes have political implications. Tons of interesting conversations that need a resting place here on VN.

This one was really interesting:

- In 1984?, 31% of HS grad girls were graduating college and 38% of boys. In 2024, it's 51% and 38% respectively.
- political lines among the young are not dividing by race/gender, so much as college educated vs. not.
- specifically, working class males are falling behind
- both groups (educated vs. not) are rejecting institutions*, but this is negatively impacting working class males because of a lack of neededness
- suicide (up 40% since 2000) and accidental over-doses are on the rise because of this...we've had an extra 400k men this century fall prey to accidental over-dose. They point out that this is like fighting a world war a century ago.
- labor force participation among young males is down. Disability claims are way up. They're living with their parents. Etc.
- the Biden administration passed economic legislation designed specifically to help this group get on their feet. But their messaging basically never includes men. They're afraid to include men for fear of appearing anti-women, or something. And that is a big reason why young men are done with D's.
- cultural ideals determine politics moreso than economic factors

And I remember several times I've heard people claim that the suicide rate among LGBTQ teens explains that there is something wrong with LGBTQ teens. I always countered that this has more to do with how they feel within society rather than anything inherent to being LGBTQ. I would say the realities now faced by young, working class males perfectly illustrate the role this acceptance mechanism plays.

*marriage, children, church, government, scouting, little league...they talked about how there are fewer coaches. 27% of teachers now are male. In so many ways, men feel and demonstrate with their actions that they feel needed less.

America’s Young Men Are Falling Behind—and Shifting Right

Richard Reeves joins Derek to talk about the state of men and what’s really happening with the gender divide in politics

www.theringer.com

The reason the alphabet group is killing themselves is that they're living a life that is unnatural and it goes against God's design.

 

[dalton_vol]

I think the day is coming when plumbers will make more than most college grads. He k they probably do already. I think we are fast approaching a day when PreK-12 teachers make more than most other college grads simply because nobody is signing up to out up with thay crap for the pay they get now. Some states force teachers to get a Masters soon after getting hired but still pay them well under what someone with a Masters should be getting. Compare the salary of a teacher with a Masters to someone with a Masters in cybersecurity. Unless you get into school administration, you get paid badly and put up with a ton of crap.

The beauty of free education by the DIMS is that it causes a large demand of people needing jobs with little supply, so the employers pay a less of a wage. A flooded job market is never good.

 

[n_huffhines]

The reason the alphabet group is killing themselves is that they're living a life that is unnatural and it goes against God's design.

The "alphabet group" is doing better than ever embracing their lifestyle. Kinda pokes a hole in your theory.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

The reason the alphabet group is killing themselves is that they're living a life that is unnatural and it goes against God's design.

Perfectly rational take.

 

[Carl Pickens]

Kudos for your selflessness. I hate seeing Sam get so worked up.

#ProtectHim

This is funny

 

[n_huffhines]

Perfectly rational take.

Imagine a God who would design a hermaphrodite who then kills itself because God never intended for he/she to have happiness, peace, acceptance, etc.

 

[dalton_vol]

Perfectly rational take.

It's true. You live a lie, your conscience bothers you because deep down you know that lifestyle is wrong. Why do you think the sodomy Community must be praised and supported and their lifestyle be constantly Affirmed

 

[dalton_vol]

The "alphabet group" is doing better than ever embracing their lifestyle. Kinda pokes a hole in your theory.

Well they're still living a lie,The world is supporting them and constantly affirming them so yes, they will Fool Themselves for a short time anyways

 

[n_huffhines]

Well they're still living a lie,The world is supporting them and constantly affirming them so yes, they will Fool Themselves for a short time anyways

You can only hope....you got hate in your heart and doodoo in your soul. Jesus ain't gonna be happy with you, bro.

 

[n_huffhines]

Much like Sessions and the AL town with the Tyson plant, the xenophobes are lying about another town they hold up as an example of immigration gone wrong.

Trump claimed Charleroi is overrun by gangs as it's getting destroyed by African and Haitian illegal immigration under Kamala. The reality is it was a sad, dying city revived by immigrants, and this started under Trump. They are largely legal and there is no spike in crime.

One townsperson claimed the Haitian market had a "no whites" sign. The truth was they had a sign that said, "Asian, African, and Caribbean food." People were offended that it didn't include American, and that's how fragile the xenophobes can be.

Paraphrasing, It's ridiculous to say that Haitians are ruining this town. At worst, you can complain they are taking it.

This Small Pennsylvania Town Explains the 2024 Election

Derek is joined by The Atlantic’s George Packer to take a look at the history of Charleroi, Pennsylvania, and how that history contains within it the story of the 2024 election

www.theringer.com