What is best Defense against HUNH

#27
#27
Whoa Fellers! I think before we try to decide what scheme we need, we should probably hope the boys learn how to tackle, shed blocks, read the qb, adjust to shifts, etc., etc., etc.

I do believe what we have here is a failure to understand that UT's greatest need is learning how to consistently play good fundamentals, FIRST.:whistling:
 
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#28
#28
#29
#29
MedicT said:
Whoa Fellers! I think before we try to decide what scheme we need, we should probably hope the boys learn how to tackle, shed blocks, read the qb, adjust to shifts, etc., etc., etc.

I do believe what we have here is a failure to understand that UT's greatest need is learning how to consistently play good fundamentals, FIRST.:whistling:
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Fundamentals SHOULD BE a given. We know they're not given the terrible tackling, block shedding, pass rushing, we've seen the last few years:

But I started this thread asking what the favored defensive packages against the HUNH are. No harm in that.
 
#31
#31
Chavis's 3-2-6 Mustang package defense is very effective against the ZR/HUNH - it shut down the two best offenses in the SEC this season.

Mason's 3-4 D at Stanford shut down Oregon by playing very disciplined assignment football. It can be done. I don't know if there's really a one-size-fits-all approach to it, but we'll find out for sure in the next few years.

Of course, the best defensive coordinator in CFB would be a Tennessee man...who we fired for someone with the last name of Kiffin and is now working elsewhere in our own conference. Classic luck of the Vols.

Good read on the subject: LSU defensive coordinator John Chavis knows the secret to stopping Johnny Manziel
 
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#32
#32
It has finally been exposed to all that follow college football,5foot six inch Nick Sabanhas no balls...:peace2:
 
#33
#33
NashVOL93 said:
Chavis's 3-2-6 Mustang package defense is very effective against the ZR/HUNH - it shut down the two best offenses in the SEC this season.

Mason's 3-4 D at Stanford shut down Oregon by playing very disciplined assignment football. It can be done. I don't know if there's really a one-size-fits-all approach to it, but we'll find out for sure in the next few years.

Of course, the best defensive coordinator in CFB would be a Tennessee man...who we fired for someone with the last name of Kiffin and is now working elsewhere in our own conference. Classic luck of the Vols.

Good read on the subject: LSU defensive coordinator John Chavis knows the secret to stopping Johnny Manziel
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Thanks for the link. Good read, again. I had seen it a few days ago, and the articles I was reading were in fact, what prompted me to start this thread. Can't read 'em all.

You mentioned Mason's 3-4, which is what we abandoned in favoer of going back to the 4-3. How well does 4-3 stack up against the HUNH. What adjustments can be made?
 
#34
#34
Orangedogsrule said:
Thanks for the link. Good read, again. I had seen it a few days ago, and the articles I was reading were in fact, what prompted me to start this thread. Can't read 'em all.

You mentioned Mason's 3-4, which is what we abandoned in favoer of going back to the 4-3. How well does 4-3 stack up against the HUNH. What adjustments can be made?
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You know, to be honest, I'm really not a defensive guru, but I can tell you with certainty that it wasn't the 3-4 that was the problem in 2012. The scheme itself is sound. The problem was Sal's total inability to call or teach it, and to be fair, we probably didn't have the level of personnel needed to run it either.

I'm not sure which one is most effective against the HUNH-style offense. There probably isn't really an answer to that, since they both kind of do the same thing but in different ways. Especially since so many defenses these days (including ours) are multiple in terms of scheme, i.e. you may see an end drop into coverage (the LEO) and an LB blitzing, etc. Stripling talked about it during the week of prep for the SCar game - keeping your "points" covered and playing disciplined football. I think it applies equally to both defenses.

Here's another good article talking about Coach Strip, the D-line, and the success we had against Carolina this season. There's some words of big praise from the players for Coach Strip, saying "there's not a better D-line coach in the country". I take that pretty seriously, since those guys would know: they've had a lot of different DL coaches in their time at UT.

Tennessee Vols' defensive front must continue its improvement
 
#35
#35
Orangedogsrule said:
siap ... The proposed 10 second rule allowing defenses to run in subs, ostensibly to reduce injuries, may or may not pass. There are lots of folks opposed to it, and like 'GrowVol' point to coaching and S&C as the answer; (See the other thread) and some who support it. Lots of reasons for each side. The merits of whether the proposed rule is good and will reduce injuries can be discussed there.

So, let's assume the injury question is moot, and the proposal fails, and CFB rules continue as they are:

Is it true that defense is much more physically demanding than offense? Hey, lots of fans (myself included) seem to think so. And if so, after the D gets gassed, and it will:

How do coaches counter the HUNH? 3-4, 4-3, 4-2-5, hybrids, what?

What kinds of players must be recruited for each position.
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It just depends on personnel really but im a big fan of the 4-2-5 and 3-3-5 for when u have a RB and TE in. You can have run support and it can be a hard defense to read on pass plays and u can disguise blitzes. Can be very confusing.
 
#38
#38
Orangedogsrule said:
Got any diagrams? Who on our roster fits your schemes?
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You'll love my response right now. If somebody off the streets wanted to hire me as defensive coordinator, I would run a scheme called the 4-3 Monster. It was developed under Coach Osborne at Nebraska, and I would say Chavis used something similar to this here. If you want an example of what it would look like, it'd be Pete Carrol's defense.

Here are two of the run stop packages that would be instituted called 4-3 Over, and 4-3 Under. I would have to use strong/weak calls to position players fast enough.

4-3_OVER.png


alignment-diagram-4-3-Under-copy.png


I will use the 4-3 over diagram to explain positions and responsibilities.

My strong side defensive end is going to have to be around 270, because he is going to anchor down the run. He's going to have to be able to pass rush also. Some players on our roster who fit the bill would be Jordan Williams, Derek Barnett, Dwayne Hendrix, and Dimyara Mixon.

My defensive tackles in the middle are going to be around 6'-6'2", 285-310 pound guys. These guys are going to penetrate the strong side A, and the weak side B gaps. You can figure out the strong side by where the TE is. These guys are going to be able to rush the passer as well as keep the run. Some examples would be Owen Williams, Trevarrius Salusberry, Danny O'Brien, Kendal Vickers, Michael Sawyers, and Jashon Roberton. See the pattern our football team could be going?

My weakside defensive end, or known as Leo, is a pure pass rusher. He has to be able to stand against the run decently, only enough to get off the blocker. He's going to make sure the backside is defended as well. Examples here include Corey Vereen, Latroy Lewis, Joe Henderson, and Curt Maggitt.

My strongside linebacker is a bigger guy who can shed blocks and tackle well. He has to be around 230-240 pounds. I'd actually put AJ Johnson here. Gavin Bryant could develop here if given the time.

My middle linebacker needs to be able to cover sideline to sideline. He also has to be a smart player. He's the guy my defense is funneled through. We just need a guy who's 220-240 here. I actually like Jakob Johnson to play here. He seems like a good kid, who is fast and can direct the defense.

My weak side linebacker is also known as my monster. This guy is on the slimmer side for a linebacker. He has to be able to defend the pass, rush the passer, and defend the run well. This where the star linebacker plays. Dillon Bates would be a dream monster for most teams.

I want bigger corners who excel at man-to-man. My Free safety must be able to cover over the top. My strong Safety would be a guy who can help in run support. He usually covers the second half during pass plays.
 
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#39
#39
Orangedogsrule said:
I understand your point, but I'd like to make some.
It's not about the pity poor us thing. Defense IS more physically demanding than offense. Defenders ALWAYS have to chase the ball. After the initial line surge, they have to fight to turn find the play and put themselves in a position to make the tackle if the run is forced back in their direction. Offense knows where the play is going, can see what has happened and therefore are able to conserve their strength and stamina. This is a pretty much agreed on truth among coaches.

So, you say, improve S&C for the defense, and they will. But so will the offense, for the HUNH they pretty much already have, and so I think conditioning for stamina is a wash, no matter how much improved conditioning is accomplished. Both sides are doing it.

The end result is in the 2nd half, the defensive starters are going to be gassed, much more so than the offense. They just will.

If you like the HUNH for that very reason, wearing down the defense, I can see your point. Games will be more high scoring, and we'll see a lot of teams just shoving the ball downfield on running plays against a gassed defense. One that cannot play up to their own skill level. So, if that's what happens, if it's tough titty for the D, but get out there and give it the 'ol' college try' so be it.

But I personally see it as the offense has found a way to take what used to be a fair rule the way football used to be played. I mean wasn't the 'no defensive subbing' rule put in place because the offense WAS DOING THE PITY POOR US HOGWASH in the first place? Keeping the defense from subbing fresh players against the tiring offense, unless the offense itself subs? Well, It's a two way street. At least it should be. But now the HUNH turns the original fair play intent of the rule upside down to gain, what I and many others, see as an unfair competitive advantage for the offense, by gassing the D. We see the results in all these high scoring games.

The offense has to be in great shape to run HUNH, the defense has to be in great shape to defend it. I may be wrong, but I doubt S&C will be able to counter the exhausting effects of the HUNH on defense, because defense is harder. It'll take a few years to determine that.

The best bet will be creative defensive scheming and what package to use when, what players to use in it, and how well it can adapt to various offensive schemes.
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Bingo. Personally, I think that both the NFL and NCAA want to see more scoring to compensate for the current 10 second attention span of the average viewer. This is not the NBA, and I for one do not wish to see offensive players streaking unopposed up and down the field beating their chest and screaming "LOOK AT ME". Dick Butkus, dammit. Now you hippies get off my lawn.
 
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#41
#41
VFL1953 said:
Bingo. Personally, I think that both the NFL and NCAA want to see more scoring to compensate for the current 10 second attention span of the average viewer. This is not the NBA, and I for one do not wish to see offensive players streaking unopposed up and down the field beating their chest and screaming "LOOK AT ME". Dick Butkus, dammit. Now you hippies get off my lawn.
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to much has been given to the offense,give the defense a break every now and again


and it seems to be Chiefs vaunted Mustang Package,that is doing well
 
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#42
#42
Man to man defense is the key, jam receivers at the line so the QB doesn't have any quick outs... then rush the hell out of him..put him on his back as much as humanly possible.

A QB that is flustered and frustrated is not going to run his HUNH very effectively.

The biggest key to battling the hurry up, is having your defense in shape... the time of the big uglies is coming to an end.. 350lb DL are not going to cut it as they tire to easily..

you need lighter/faster linemen that have the stamina to make it through 8-9 snaps
 
#43
#43
ImportedVoL said:
Man to man defense is the key, jam receivers at the line so the QB doesn't have any quick outs... then rush the hell out of him..put him on his back as much as humanly possible.

A QB that is flustered and frustrated is not going to run his HUNH very effectively.

The biggest key to battling the hurry up, is having your defense in shape... the time of the big uglies is coming to an end.. 350lb DL are not going to cut it as they tire to easily..

you need lighter/faster linemen that have the stamina to make it through 8-9 snaps
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Agree with your points on man to man, but only as long as the D match ups well with their assignments.

With the improved stamina needed by the Oline in HUNH the Dline has to match that. You may be right, to a point, on the big uglies size issue; but because Oline IS physically less demanding, I don't think they'll be getting any smaller, just more fit. So plain old big body needed to go against big body dictates the Dline can't get much smaller, if any; only more fit, if that is even possible. bUTch & co. must agree with the size thing. See the "Where's the
eef" article on the home page here on VN. Agility training is going to get huge for the Dline to be able to shed blocks to pressure QB & RB's before plays are allowed to develop.

I think the S&C coaches are critical going forward. But all things being equal as far as maximum possible strength and stamina conditioning being achieved for both sides of the ball, ... defense is more physically demanding for all positions, and even the best are going to be gassed towards the end of the game. The depth of a roster where each player is as fit as possible, and there is judicious substitution throughout the game by the DC is, IMHO, the only approach to dealing with the exhaustion issue where the D can't sub for long drives. And hey. That's the way it's always been ain't it? Just so much more difficult against the HUNH.
 
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#44
#44
VFL1953 said:
Bingo. Personally, I think that both the NFL and NCAA want to see more scoring to compensate for the current 10 second attention span of the average viewer. This is not the NBA, and I for one do not wish to see offensive players streaking unopposed up and down the field beating their chest and screaming "LOOK AT ME". Dick Butkus, dammit. Now you hippies get off my lawn.
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Personally, I think modern players are just babied too much. Back in the old days, a lot of players played both ways the entire game. Example: Sammy Baugh was both a QB and DB. You didn't get this whinnying about fatigue caused injuries. So I still say S&C is the answer.You don't get it either form even today's rugby and soccer players who do more unsubstituted running around the field than either college or pro players.
 
#45
#45
WoodsmanVol said:
Personally, I think modern players are just babied too much. Back in the old days, a lot of players played both ways the entire game. Example: Sammy Baugh was both a QB and DB. You didn't get this whinnying about fatigue caused injuries. So I still say S&C is the answer.You don't get it either form even today's rugby and soccer players who do more unsubstituted running around the field than either college or pro players.
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The 'old days' ... your reaching back to 1914 for Baugh. The NCAA didn't adopt the two platoon system as it now stands til 1965. Most high schools took into the '70s.

This Wiki article covers it pretty well. I love where they quote General Neyland calling it "chicken**** football"!

One-platoon system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But we do have two platoon football. For neigh on half a century now and that's NOT gonna change. Given the S&C programs even in high schools now modern players are more fit now than ever. There is no way those old teams could go against modern athletes, even if we were playing their one platoon game.

As to soccer players. Yeah, they are more fit. I've seen soccer dudes switch to HS football and first few practice be bouncing around teasing the biguns who are gassed. But you don't see any linemen types on the soccer field and few if any soccer players are making the HS varsity line, outside the kid who 'gets his growth'. Two different worlds.
 
#46
#46
Orangedogsrule said:
The 'old days' ... your reaching back to 1914 for Baugh. The NCAA didn't adopt the two platoon system as it now stands til 1965. Most high schools took into the '70s.

This Wiki article covers it pretty well. I love where they quote General Neyland calling it "chicken**** football"!

One-platoon system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But we do have two platoon football. For neigh on half a century now and that's NOT gonna change. Given the S&C programs even in high schools now modern players are more fit now than ever. There is no way those old teams could go against modern athletes, even if we were playing their one platoon game.

As to soccer players. Yeah, they are more fit. I've seen soccer dudes switch to HS football and first few practice be bouncing around teasing the biguns who are gassed. But you don't see any linemen types on the soccer field and few if any soccer players are making the HS varsity line, outside the kid who 'gets his growth'. Two different worlds.
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You missed the rugby players. A few ex-NFLers have had the misfortune to play it in Australia and I'm told, don't even last beyond 3 games, if that.
 
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#47
#47
WoodsmanVol said:
You missed the rugby players. A few ex-NFLers have had the misfortune to play it in Australia and I'm told, don't even last beyond 3 games, if that.
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I agree rugby is Real Man football. Had a friend who took 7 years to graduate UT just to stay on the club team, then found a way to keep playing. Always a bloody, and I do mean BLOODY, pile of laundry on his floor. Dude always had a bandage on somewhere.

But we're s'posed to be talking defense against the modern HUNH. Apart from getting as fit as can be, whutz yer plan?

Who's program do you like? Which packages and why?
 
#48
#48
Burger said:
3-2-6, and any kind of nickel package. 4-2-5

My idea on how to defend it would be a 4-3 monster. I'd get a hard hitting safety playing my will spot. He'd be a monster, meaning he can rush the passer, defend the run, or cover the pass. Dillion Bates would be my monster if we ran it at UT. If Hunh goes fast, my D must go faster, if it makes sense. We must last to win. I'd get coverage safeties and forget about AJ type linebackers.

I got other ideas how to make the up tempo into a 10 second 3+ out.
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So how would you do that? Inquiring minds want to know.
 
#49
#49
This has already been touched on, but I agree with those who said that more safeties need to be added so that more speed is on the field to keep up with 3+WR sets and also faster pass catching TE's. Having faster personnel (FS , SS) instead of slower LB's is a must. Greater specialization of the defensive line depending on what the offense likes to do could also help. For example when playing a faster mobile QB, the D should put in defensive ends that are swifter so they can 1)contain contain contain the QB and 2)drop into coverage in spots that the QB isn't expecting. Faster DE's is a start, but substitution on the D Line as a whole be it 2 LB's sub in for the 2 DE's or a LB/S subbing for a DT. The goal is to confuse the QB. If the D can slip in a player into a spot without the QB realizing or if a player can drop into coverage where that position wouldn't traditionally have dropped from then turnovers can happen quickly. I like a bend don't break defense. Offenses these days are going to score, but if you can catch them by surprise a few times, then maybe you make a few of those game changing turnovers when it matters most. Hell, maybe spend a little bit of time in practice planning on how to score on defense if you do manage to get a turnover. Always keep pressure on the QB. With extra safeties in for LB's or D Lineman, blitz often if the DLINE can't get any pressure or let the line do it themselves, but DO NOT let the QB get comfortable. Switch coverages so that someone unusual is covering someone or utilize man to man and zones in the same play with more variety than just the man to man cover 2. The D's gonna get burnt some plays, but that's okay. Focus on getting turnovers. This may all sound like a bunch of rambling on about things that are obvious, but since I don't want to spend eternity tweaking one post, I'll leave it at that. Maybe a few folks will get where I'm coming from.
 
#50
#50
Orangedogsrule said:
So how would you do that? Inquiring minds want to know.
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There lies the $64,000 question. One way is to put in one or more S/CB/LB on the D Line and letting them drop into coverage from there. QB's throw picks to DE's all the time when a DE drops into coverage when the QB expected a wide open throw. Take it a step further. Put a LB in for one of the DT's and tell him to shadow the QB or drop into a zone in a spot where the offense is having success. Just keep trying different stuff until the QB makes a mistake.
 
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