What would be your best lineup past present future

[Pacer92]

Fielding percentage is completely subjective. It’s based on one man’s opinion on what an error should or shouldn’t be. It’s a useless tool.

If you’re not gonna use defensive metrics I’d suggest just overall putouts and assists

Disagree....

Putouts have no business being weighed heavier than a chance. Most putout's are the easiest plays in baseball..

 

[zjcvols]

Disagree....

Putouts have no business being weighed heavier than a chance. Most putout's are the easiest plays in baseball..

How is an error decided in baseball?

 

[Pacer92]

Okay so here is Ozzie Smith from 1982-1991...and Ripken from 1983-1992 (Ripken played half his games at 3B in 1982 so I pushed it back a year. I figured I’d use the same time frame they played (I know young Ozzie was amazing on defense but he also was horrible on offense before 1982, 66 wRC+).

Ozzie Smith
Putouts: 2,453
Assists: 4,776
Games: 1474
Average outs per game: 4.9

Cal Ripken
Putouts: 2691
Assists: 4972
Games: 1616

So outs per game: 4.74

So Ozzie was with an .16 of an out per game...or Ozzie was worth 1.6 outs every 10 games over Cal.

Now offensively

1982-1991 Smith: 95 OPS+
1983-1992 Ripken: 125 OPS+

So...Ripken is 30% better offensively than Smith...but Ozzie is only worth an extra out every 1.6 outs every ten games...the defense rests.

so, by this metric....catchers who caught the most strikeouts per game ever...are the best defensive catchers?

 

[Pacer92]

How is an error decided in baseball?

Many ways..

 

[zjcvols]

Many ways..

Not really. An error is decided by the home team official scorer, of which there are 30 and all have different views on what an error shouldn’t or should be. I’m sure you’ve seen many a play where you thought that should or shouldn’t be an error. An error is completely subjective. Even though putouts and assists isn’t the end all be all, it’s a much better to look at defense instead of errors.

 

[zjcvols]

Ozzie Smith is one of the most overrated baseball players of all time. I know his defense was awesome, and he played in an era when that meant more, but his offense was really bad as you say.

He had to be as good of a defender as he was, and he was an incredible defender, in order to even stay in the league as long as he did.

The other thing that bothers me is this idea that Smith was head and shoulders so much better than anyone else. Was he the best? Yes. But Ripken was amazing too. Mark Belanger was amazing. Larkin and Trammell were great.

 

[Pacer92]

Not really. An error is decided by the home team official scorer, of which there are 30 and all have different views on what an error shouldn’t or should be. I’m sure you’ve seen many a play where you thought that should or shouldn’t be an error. An error is completely subjective. Even though putouts and assists isn’t the end all be all, it’s a much better to look at defense instead of errors.

No way...

Like I said, by this standard a first baseman with 500 PO's, 25 assists and 32 errors is deemed better than a first baseman with 470 PO's, 21 assists and 3 errors....

 

[zjcvols]

No way...

Like I said, by this standard a first baseman with 500 PO's, 25 assists and 32 errors is deemed better than a first baseman with 470 PO's, 21 assists and 3 errors....

Sounds like that first baseman A could be getting to a lot more balls than first baseman B increasing his errors. Maybe he has a really tough scorer. Maybe he plays on astroturf and a really bad field.

Even if you use assists then and not putouts for SS if you compare Ripken and Smith

Smith: 3.24/game
Ripken: 3.07/game

A extra 1.7 assists every ten games...and Ripken is still 30% better offensively.

 

[Pacer92]

Sounds like that first baseman A could be getting to a lot more balls than first baseman B increasing his errors. Maybe he has a really tough scorer. Maybe he plays on astroturf and a really bad field.

Even if you use assists then and not putouts for SS if you compare Ripken and Smith

Smith: 3.24/game
Ripken: 3.07/game

A extra 1.7 assists every ten games...and Ripken is still 30% better offensively.

More assists for a big league SS means more chances most likely...thus chances and errors...

I wasn’t arguing Ripken and Smith...I wouldn’t have either in my lineup...

 

[85SugarVol]

“Smoke” Walter Johnson wasnt throwing 96-98 consistently. Hell he “might” have been hitting 90

Walter Johnson probably operated 94-95 if measured via today’s methods.

Do you really believe Cobb & Gehrig wouldn’t hit in today’s game? Or Ruth? How about Williams & DiMaggio?

 

[lukeneyland]

Well, yea, I mean he was a good batter. He helped win the World Series.

All time though? He did so at my teams expense

 

[Orange defense]

All time though? He did so at my teams expense

Well!