Whats Next?/What is this country coming to? (merged)

#176
#176
OrangeEmpire said:

I don' think that is the argument, the argument is that the founders where legit born again christians who wanted a theocracy.
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The framers of the constitution clearly did not want a theocracy, I don't know that there is disagreement of that. They did not want "religion" overseeing the government, but that doesn't mean that biblical principles did not, and should not, "influence" government... which is clearly the case. I brought up Darwinism because it is largely the evolutionists and secularists today that use the argument of "God" not being referenced in the constitution... and yet those beliefs didn't even exist at the time it was written!
 
#177
#177
J-P said:
The point is that it's a stretch to compare Christian display of a scripture passage to the muslim mandate to convert the world by the sword.

I agree that the US Constitution protects freedom of religion and personally, I am opposed to government at the federal level having any involvement whatsoever in the education system, that should be at the local or community level to avoid what is quickly becoming centralized indoctrination centers. But trying to compare America's Christians to folks who oppress or slaughter those who do not believe as they do is ludicrous, even if it is a somewhat popular theory amongst atheists these days...
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Unfortunately Federal $$ mean federal lesson plans!
 
#178
#178
BigPapaVol said:
the constitution was not founded on any religious beliefs. The overarching principal is freedom of choice, period. The founders were bright enough to leave out their own personal viewpoints to create a country with room for all viewpoints. That is their legacy and let's not tarnish it by trying to paint it as something that it isn't.
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Ironically, it is religious right and the humanists that trumpet limits of individual choice....both seem to prefer feudalism. OE is simply refusing to be a serf.
 
#179
#179
J-P said:
The point is that it's a stretch to compare Christian display of a scripture passage to the muslim mandate to convert the world by the sword.

I agree that the US Constitution protects freedom of religion and personally, I am opposed to government at the federal level having any involvement whatsoever in the education system, that should be at the local or community level to avoid what is quickly becoming centralized indoctrination centers. But trying to compare America's Christians to folks who oppress or slaughter those who do not believe as they do is ludicrous, even if it is a somewhat popular theory amongst atheists these days...
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No one is doing that, which is the beautiful thing about the founders and how they shaped this country.

People pervert religion for political gain, in this country, it is not going to happen!
 
#180
#180
Lexvol said:
Ironically, it is religious right and the humanists that trumpet limits of individual choice....both seem to prefer feudalism. OE is simply refusing to be a serf.
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Dang straight, I will never be subservient to the gov't although I work for jerks.....

Hmmm......

:crazy:
 
#182
#182
touchdown.gif
 
#184
#184
My main point is, I saw the Nick Berg video... I was horrified and did not sleep well that night. I take is as an insult when someone tries to compare my faith with the butchers that committed that act. No comparison, whatsoever...
 
#185
#185
J-P said:
My main point is, I saw the Nick Berg video... I was horrified and did not sleep well that night. I take is as an insult when someone tries to compare my faith with the butchers that committed that act. No comparison, whatsoever...
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Exactly, you have the freedom to disagree!

That is why we are the greatest country in the history of the world.

I have no desire to see the Southern Baptist Convention running our country.

If a christians wants to influence gov't, then vote. Not force people to their viewpoint through law.
 
#186
#186
J-P said:
My main point is, I saw the Nick Berg video... I was horrified and did not sleep well that night. I take is as an insult when someone tries to compare my faith with the butchers that committed that act. No comparison, whatsoever...
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I'd offer that has less to do with your faith, and more to do with your level of education. If you only had a grade school education, you would find plenty of evidence to support violence (as it relates to the will of God) in the Bible.
 
#187
#187
BigPapaVol said:
the constitution was not founded on any religious beliefs. The overarching principal is freedom of choice, period. The founders were bright enough to leave out their own personal viewpoints to create a country with room for all viewpoints. That is their legacy and let's not tarnish it by trying to paint it as something that it isn't.
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The very day that Congress finished its work on the First Amendment, it called on President George Washington to issue a Proclamation to the people of the United States to thank God for the freedoms we enjoy. A week and a day later the President's opening paragraph in his Proclamation said: "Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God...

Fact:
There is only one state constitution which has a preamble that does not have a divine reference of any kind. This is the Constitution of Oregon. In the other states, the word "God", "Supreme Ruler of the Universe" or the most popular (in 30 states) "Almighty God" is used. To think that our constitution and government beliefs were not somehow based on religious principles is a losing argument, as the ONLY evidence being used to support it is that GOD is not listed in the constitution.
 
#188
#188
IBlvNTmWrk said:
The very day that Congress finished its work on the First Amendment, it called on President George Washington to issue a Proclamation to the people of the United States to thank God for the freedoms we enjoy. A week and a day later the President's opening paragraph in his Proclamation said: "Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God...

Fact:
There is only one state constitution which has a preamble that does not have a divine reference of any kind. This is the Constitution of Oregon. In the other states, the word "God", "Supreme Ruler of the Universe" or the most popular (in 30 states) "Almighty God" is used. To think that our constitution and government beliefs were not somehow based on religious principles is a losing argument, as the ONLY evidence being used to support it is that GOD is not listed in the constitution.
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Of course the laws are, we do want gov't to = religion.
 
#189
#189
OrangeEmpire said:
Exactly, you have the freedom to disagree!

That is why we are the greatest country in the history of the world.

I have no desire to see the Southern Baptist Convention running our country.

If a christians wants to influence gov't, then vote. Not force people to their viewpoint through law.
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Great point OE. Isn't it ironic that this freedom of choice is based on Christian principles? That Christianity is a gift one can choose to accept or not? I grew up Southern Baptist and I would not like to see them running our country either (my apologies if I'm offending anyone), but true Christianity should not carry some of the 20th century beliefs that Baptists and others have chosen to add to their cause.
 
#191
#191
IBlvNTmWrk said:
Great point OE. Isn't it ironic that this freedom of choice is based on Christian principles? That Christianity is a gift one can choose to accept or not? I grew up Southern Baptist and I would not like to see them running our country either (my apologies if I'm offending anyone), but true Christianity should not carry some of the 20th century beliefs that Baptists and others have chosen to add to their cause.
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Damn Calvinists!
 
#192
#192
No one wants a state run religion, just the freedom to worship as we feel and to not be looked upon as uneducated morons, simpily because someone else doesn't want to believe. To continually say that the founding fathers, (I'll use others terms here) were not religious men that believed in God, wether through providence or what ever, is simply not true. Call them Diest or whatever, they still believed in God.

Thomas Jefferson


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; DIPLOMAT; GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA; SECRETARY OF STATE; THIRD PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.64

The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.65

I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.66

I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.67
 
#193
#193
IBlvNTmWrk said:
I grew up Southern Baptist and I would not like to see them running our country either (my apologies if I'm offending anyone), but true Christianity should not carry some of the 20th century beliefs that Baptists and others have chosen to add to their cause.
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No offense here. I've served on a church board of directors (though not Southern Baptist) and I had concerns with them being responsible for the building, much less the country.

I agree with Paul who said something along the lines of "what do I have to do with judging the world?". I would rather first judge myself, and let God judge the world. The only area one could accuse me of remotely pushing my beliefs into law would be in regards to abortion, but even on that my position has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the value of life and the Constitutional guarantee to life.
 
#194
#194
Oldvol75 said:
No one wants a state run religion, just the freedom to worship as we feel and to not be looked upon as uneducated morons, simpily because someone else doesn't want to believe. To continually say that the founding fathers, (I'll use others terms here) were not religious men that believed in God, wether through providence or what ever, is simply not true. Call them Diest or whatever, they still believed in God.

Thomas Jefferson


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; DIPLOMAT; GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA; SECRETARY OF STATE; THIRD PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.64

The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.65

I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.66

I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.67
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Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the "Jefferson Bible" where Jefferson kept the teachings and philosophies of Jesus, but culled every reference to miracles and divinity?
 
#195
#195
vader said:
Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the "Jefferson Bible" where Jefferson kept the teachings and philosophies of Jesus, but culled every reference to miracles and divinity?
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I have never read it, sorry.

But going by the title, it seems to be "Jeffersons" Bible and not the one with Holy in front of it.
 
#197
#197
That Noah Webster guy was one smart dude!!!

"The Christian religion… is the basis, or rather the source, of all genuine freedom in government… I am persuaded that no civil government of a republican form can exist and be durable in which the principles of Christianity have not a controlling influence."
 
#198
#198
vader said:
Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the "Jefferson Bible" where Jefferson kept the teachings and philosophies of Jesus, but culled every reference to miracles and divinity?
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Personally, when I read the Bible (specifically the NT) I read it through a prism similar to this. I focus on the message and disregard the miracles and God claims. Jesus had much to say about social justice that still applies today.

I'm of the opinion that man made churches hijacked his message, inserted miracles that appeal to followers of other religions, and then framed the story to consolidate a power base and keep the masses in check. I don't see how one can look at the history of christianity and churches and not come to this conclusion.

I say focus on Jesus's message, forget the religious mumbo jumbo. That's just me though.
 
#199
#199
IBlvNTmWrk said:
That Noah Webster guy was one smart dude!!!

"The Christian religion… is the basis, or rather the source, of all genuine freedom in government… I am persuaded that no civil government of a republican form can exist and be durable in which the principles of Christianity have not a controlling influence."
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that's great and all but it comes from the idea that God created morality, fairness, etc in humans. Some believe it's already there and the authors of the bible just put it on paper and claimed it as an original idea
 
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