Where does "class warfare" stop?

#26
#26
Wow, Unimane with the almost entirely untrue lefty playbook lunacy. Crap like "voted against their self interest" is utterly senseless, but the implied message that voting free money from others is just sad as hell. That is the exact mindset that our forefather knew would eventually destroy our representative democracy. They couldn't have been more correct.
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#27
#27
I'm always amused by the accusations of "class warfare" that, essentially, work from the bottom against the top. Somehow, in this Randian wet dream, the vulnerable rich are the prey of the savage, lazy and evil masses. Yet, in our society, we have continually expanding gaps of wealth disparity while the same people benefiting greatly from our laws and financial practices are able to simultaneously play the victim in a brilliant ploy that has fooled millions in this country to vote against their own self interest. I have no idea why people who make millions by letting their investment money sit there, paying lower taxes than the average person for doing nothing, is better than a guy busting his hump digging ditches for practically nothing. I guess it works in a world where your value as a person equals your bank account, but I'm not seeing it.

As far as the GPA example, it's flawed like any example that tries to demonstrate the perfidy of the underclass. It comes down to the question "What is fair?" You can argue, in a strict sense, that the quality of the work equals your grade. However, I've seen numerous situations where "fair" is a relative term. Some students can afford tutors, others can't. Some students have parents that provide for them and get the free time to pursue their studies. Others have to provide for their families as teens and work for 8 hours after school. Some students have their parents available to them, while some have none or can even be homeless. The contingencies are endless.

So, again, what is fair? If you had a student on one side with two stable parents, nice home and the emotional support would she be a better, more worthy student than the one who has been abused by their parents/adult friend/etc (which happens more than people realize), are responsible for taking care of their brothers and sisters or any number of situations?

Ultimately, the GPA allegory is a nice, succinct and cute way to wrap a simplistic argument, but it fails to comprehend the vast complexities of the world we live within.

Oh boy. Another one.
 
#28
#28
Oh boy. Another one.

needs to explain why wealth disparity matters one iota. Most people ignoring that the wealthy provide the vast majority of American jobs need to reason through the stupid idea that trickle down economics is absolutely the rule and has been since trade began, period. This retarded idea of bottom up economics that Obama idiotically trumpeted during his campaign is, without any doubt, self defeating. Cannot win, for even a short period.
 
#30
#30
Because people are brainwashed to be envious and spiteful of wealthy individuals and no, I'm not wealthy, my parents aren't wealthy, I don't have family $$$$ either. However, I do consider myself middle class along with my parents. My father was raised by poor farmer's in Arkansas (his parents) that had no formal education. He put himself through school by working and did it without help and without gov't handouts. He is now a retired accountant and has done well for himself (still works in another business).

That being said, I believe in individual liberty and if you believe in individual liberty then you have to accept the fact that some people are going to be better off than you and that is their prerogative. That does not mean that they are any less entitled to freedoms than you are, just because they have wealth. Wage disparity is a fact of life, get over it and stop whining.
 
#31
#31
I'm always amused by the accusations of "class warfare" that, essentially, work from the bottom against the top. Somehow, in this Randian wet dream, the vulnerable rich are the prey of the savage, lazy and evil masses. Yet, in our society, we have continually expanding gaps of wealth disparity while the same people benefiting greatly from our laws and financial practices are able to simultaneously play the victim in a brilliant ploy that has fooled millions in this country to vote against their own self interest. I have no idea why people who make millions by letting their investment money sit there, paying lower taxes than the average person for doing nothing, is better than a guy busting his hump digging ditches for practically nothing. I guess it works in a world where your value as a person equals your bank account, but I'm not seeing it.

As far as the GPA example, it's flawed like any example that tries to demonstrate the perfidy of the underclass. It comes down to the question "What is fair?" You can argue, in a strict sense, that the quality of the work equals your grade. However, I've seen numerous situations where "fair" is a relative term. Some students can afford tutors, others can't. Some students have parents that provide for them and get the free time to pursue their studies. Others have to provide for their families as teens and work for 8 hours after school. Some students have their parents available to them, while some have none or can even be homeless. The contingencies are endless.

So, again, what is fair? If you had a student on one side with two stable parents, nice home and the emotional support would she be a better, more worthy student than the one who has been abused by their parents/adult friend/etc (which happens more than people realize), are responsible for taking care of their brothers and sisters or any number of situations?

Ultimately, the GPA allegory is a nice, succinct and cute way to wrap a simplistic argument, but it fails to comprehend the vast complexities of the world we live within.


Great post.

And aptly points out the irony that the TP rank and file earnestly believe that they are standing up for blue collar America, when in reality they have been deceived into supporting a platform and a group of people who exploit them and use their votes to sustain, what is for the average TPer, inconceivable greed.
 
#32
#32
Great post.

And aptly points out the irony that the TP rank and file earnestly believe that they are standing up for blue collar America, when in reality they have been deceived into supporting a platform and a group of people who exploit them and use their votes to sustain, what is for the average TPer, inconceivable greed.

Oh for the love of...
 
#34
#34
Oh for the love of...


You have to admit the old lady standing up and calling Obama an "A-rab" at a TP rally, whilst the officials on the platform are planning to raise her taxes and/or cut her benefits so that the wealthy can simply horde some more is a little incongruous.
 
#35
#35
Great post.

And aptly points out the irony that the Democrat rank and file earnestly believe that they are standing up for blue collar America, when in reality they have been deceived into supporting a platform and a group liberal elitists of who exploit them and use their votes to sustain, what is for the average Democratic voter, inconceivable greed.

fyp
 
#36
#36
You have to admit the old lady standing up and calling Obama an "A-rab" at a TP rally, whilst the officials on the platform are planning to raise her taxes and/or cut her benefits so that the wealthy can simply horde some more is a little incongruous.

Nice stereotype to start with.

Yeah, that's exactly the policy motivation - Mr. Burns would be proud.

I'll give it a try:

The smelly hippy from an upper middle class family screaming Republicans hate the poor and are destroying the environment leaves the rally in his high-end SUV and drives right by several homeless people without offering any help. He went to private school but feels Rs are anti-education because they wish others had the same option.

Votes for leaders that will funnel money to fat cat investors who bundle money for those leaders in exchange for sweetheart government handouts. All the while, they enact policies that ensure the poor will be forever poor and thus "need" these leaders to provide for them; all while these leaders hang with their rich friends and pat themselves on the back for "caring" and getting stinking rich.
 
#37
#37
Nice stereotype to start with.

Yeah, that's exactly the policy motivation - Mr. Burns would be proud.

I'll give it a try:

The smelly hippy from an upper middle class family screaming Republicans hate the poor and are destroying the environment leaves the rally in his high-end SUV and drives right by several homeless people without offering any help. He went to private school but feels Rs are anti-education because they wish others had the same option.

Votes for leaders that will funnel money to fat cat investors who bundle money for those leaders in exchange for sweetheart government handouts. All the while, they enact policies that ensure the poor will be forever poor and thus "need" these leaders to provide for them; all while these leaders hang with their rich friends and pat themselves on the back for "caring" and getting stinking rich.


Hypocrisy everywhere, my friend, I agree.
 
#41
#41
Great post.

And aptly points out the irony that the TP rank and file earnestly believe that they are standing up for blue collar America, when in reality they have been deceived into supporting a platform and a group of people who exploit them and use their votes to sustain, what is for the average TPer, inconceivable greed.

No it wasn't. The opening paragraph was utter trash.
 
#42
#42
You have to admit the old lady standing up and calling Obama an "A-rab" at a TP rally, whilst the officials on the platform are planning to raise her taxes and/or cut her benefits so that the wealthy can simply horde some more is a little incongruous.

you need to trot out something new. You have a function on earth because wealthy people agree to pay your hourly rates, while broke people don't.
 
#43
#43
No it wasn't. The opening paragraph was utter trash.

My first paragraph was most certainly on point and I see we've gone to the "job creators" argument already, which is a poor justification. "Money hoarders" might be a better term for many, but the most realistic term might be "job creators as it benefits them", if you want to pull the job creator card nonsense. They are making record profits in many industries, yet these "job creators" have us at high unemployment because of their supposed fears of the markert and people still carry water for them.

The problem, essentially, is not that people are rich. I'm not jealous of people having money. It's the fact that there is the step and fetch mentality for the individuals who use the lower classes and the mechanisms society and government has created for their own profits, then express the idea that they have done this on their own merit.

People bend over and gladly take it from them because they are slaves to the system and hold the erroneous belief that they too can become part of this elite group. They are so willing to kowtow to these supposed "job creators" that they will allow all kinds of abuses, disproportionate taxation and vilification of the poor to happen so they too can reach this dream.

So, no, my statement wasn't even close to trash. I suppose it won't matter and you'll still advocate following the "job creators" off the economic cliff again and again. We have sold our soul to these mighty "job creators" and got very little in return.
 
#44
#44
you need to trot out something new. You have a function on earth because wealthy people agree to pay your hourly rates, while broke people don't.


Ah, so these generous people who have provided this function for us are absolved from many of the obligations that should be required of them to the people that maintain their wealth?

The system isn't breaking because people are eroding the abilities of the wealthy to function and provide jobs. The system is breaking because we have allowed the wealthy to forsake their obligations to the people who make their wealth in exchange for a false hope that we will be wealthy ourselves if we just cater to their happiness.
 
#46
#46
My first paragraph was most certainly on point and I see we've gone to the "job creators" argument already, which is a poor justification. "Money hoarders" might be a better term for many, but the most realistic term might be "job creators as it benefits them", if you want to pull the job creator card nonsense. They are making record profits in many industries, yet these "job creators" have us at high unemployment because of their supposed fears of the markert and people still carry water for them.

The problem, essentially, is not that people are rich. I'm not jealous of people having money. It's the fact that there is the step and fetch mentality for the individuals who use the lower classes and the mechanisms society and government has created for their own profits, then express the idea that they have done this on their own merit.

People bend over and gladly take it from them because they are slaves to the system and hold the erroneous belief that they too can become part of this elite group. They are so willing to kowtow to these supposed "job creators" that they will allow all kinds of abuses, disproportionate taxation and vilification of the poor to happen so they too can reach this dream.

So, no, my statement wasn't even close to trash. I suppose it won't matter and you'll still advocate following the "job creators" off the economic cliff again and again. We have sold our soul to these mighty "job creators" and got very little in return.

You assume too much.

"Our so-called brilliant, Nobel Prize-winning President, for months, has exhorted American businesses to hire employees and invest – as if wishing for an economic recovery would make it so. Recently, however, Democrat and mega-businessman Steve Wynn told the country – and Obama, if he was listening – why cash rich business is not hiring and investing. According to Wynn, “this administration is the greatest wet blanket to business, and progress and job creation in my lifetime . . . those of us who have business opportunities and the capital to do it are going to sit in fear of the President . . .”
President Calvin Coolidge used to say, “The chief business of the American people is business.” Even so, business doesn’t invest just for fun – they invest for profit – and they don’t invest if they think the risk of not making an acceptable profit is too high. I wrote “acceptable” because business weighs the fact that even if they make money, it will be taxed. As such, a business must decide not only if it will be able to make a profit, but will the profit be so much that it would be worth the trouble/risk after taking taxes into consideration. Keep in mind business knows that it carries all of the downside risk and that government will take a good portion of any upside. If at some point the risk gets too high, business investment and spending is stalled.
Today, Steve Wynn, and much of American business, believes that the risk of not making a decent profit is too high for several reasons. For instance, business doesn’t see sufficient consumer demand – so they don’t stock their shelves or expand production as they otherwise might. Regulations and the threat of more regulations are so high that they hold back money to pay for future costs. Taxes and the threat of higher taxes are also high – and that too causes business to hold back spending in order to pay those future taxes. As a result, business investment and spending is stalled.
All of which brings us to the early 1920’s. Back then government created unacceptable risk because it was taking too much of the upside. Democrats under Woodrow Wilson instituted the income tax in 1913 with a top rate of 7%. Just over 3 years later it was 77%. In other words, the federal government was telling Capitalists, “You risk the downside and, if you are lucky enough to make money, on that last, top dollar, we will take 77%.” Not surprisingly, by 1918, we were in a deep recession because of a reduction in war spending and the high tax rates. By the early 1920’s, poor consumer demand and high tax rates caused investors to believe that there was too much risk for them to spend or invest very much.
So what did they do with their money? They parked huge amounts of it in tax-free, risk free, government bonds. Incredibly, rather than risk their money, the rich were being paid tax-free interest by the government. Also not surprisingly, government revenues lagged because business transactions and profits had been greatly reduced by the high tax rates.
Treasury Secretary and Republican Andrew Mellon saw all of that. It confirmed what he knew; namely that the “history of taxation shows that taxes which are inherently excessive are not paid. The high rates inevitably put pressure upon the taxpayer to withdraw his capital from productive business.”
 
#47
#47
"And I'm saying it bluntly, that this administration is the greatest wet blanket to business, and progress and job creation in my lifetime. And I can prove it and I could spend the next 3 hours giving you examples of all of us in this market place that are frightened to death about all the new regulations, our healthcare costs escalate, regulations coming from left and right. A President that seems, that keeps using that word redistribution. Well, my customers and the companies that provide the vitality for the hospitality and restaurant industry, in the United States of America, they are frightened of this administration.And it makes you slow down and not invest your money. Everybody complains about how much money is on the side in America.

You bet and until we change the tempo and the conversation from Washington, it's not going to change. And those of us who have business opportunities and the capital to do it are going to sit in fear of the President. And a lot of people don't want to say that. They'll say, God, don't be attacking Obama. Well, this is Obama's deal and it's Obama that's responsible for this fear in America."

Steve Wynn, CEO of Wynn Resorts, Democrat and Harry Reid supporter



Read more: Wynn CEO Goes On Epic Anti-Obama Rant On Company Conference Call - Business Insider
 
#48
#48
Have you guys ever heard of poor people creating jobs for others?

When it comes to creating jobs, no one has done more for government employees than the poor. Think of all the agencies at the federal, state, and local levels that are responsible for making sure the poor get their benefits.
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#49
#49
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krcNIWPkNzA[/youtube]

one of my favorite scenes from "The 5th Element"

I think it exposes the myth of the government make-work projects that the Obama administration is currently hyping
 
#50
#50
Ah, so these generous people who have provided this function for us are absolved from many of the obligations that should be required of them to the people that maintain their wealth?

The system isn't breaking because people are eroding the abilities of the wealthy to function and provide jobs. The system is breaking because we have allowed the wealthy to forsake their obligations to the people who make their wealth in exchange for a false hope that we will be wealthy ourselves if we just cater to their happiness.

I laughed. Good stuff. It's almost as if we don't have a progressive tax system that sees the bottom half of earners in our country pay not one penny to the IRS. Almost, except that they don't, while the top 10% pays half.

If those that are hoarding truly didn't reinvest, there would no no private enterprise, but don't let that bother you. Private enterprise is just another place where all the bad rich guys force employees into slave labor, never pay anyone, and just get rich. Thank goodness we have all those against their own will laborers and hangers on to make these rich people money, otherwise, we wouldn't be able to did a drag on the economy.

Wonder where all the capital tied up in privately owned companies, by far the largest employer in our country, comes from? Must be from the conscripted workers doing their fair share for the lazy rich so they can shirk their obligation to the broke. Wish I had studied that angle, then my books wouldn't have that shareholders equity line that never seems to generate enough return and keeps my partners edgy. We'd probably have opted to let all the employees take up that line item. Be far more profitable that way and they might not feel enslaved as they do today.

Remind me, what is their obligation?
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