Which coach walked into the worst situation

[WillisWG]

Yup. The roster Josh inherited would beat the group Johnny found by 50 points.

But, this crowd wasn't yet conceived.

Photo of Bill Battles' final team.

50 points? Stanley Morgan, Larry Sievers, Mickey Marvin, Andy Spiva, Jesse Turbow, Roland James, Jim Noonan, Reggie Harper and Craig Puki would certainly disagreed.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Majors by far. Player personnel may have been down for the other coaches by varying degrees and they may have had to overcome some negative recruiting due to ncaa investigations, but the rest all walked into a nationally recognized brand, world class facilities and stadium, and a very competitive recruiting budget. As we saw, even a bozo like Butch Jones could sell here.

Majors didn’t walk into what Heupel did. Program under major investigation. Lost over 30 players to the portal. Negative recruiting that made it much more difficult to recruit. Scholarship reduction. SEC is much more competitive. Had to walk into Saban, Smart and Kelly. Worst recruiting violations in program history. Pruitt winning only 3 games.

Majors didn’t walk into anything remotely close to that.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

The only reason Majors isn't winning this poll is most on here are not old enough to remember or weren't born yet when Bittle Battle inflicted his damage to the program.

Really? So Majors lost over 30 players to the portal? Was dealing with the worst recruiting violations in program history? Had a depleted roster to the point where he had to have walk on kickers play on the DL? He had to deal with Saban and Smart? Had to deal with the portal?

Sorry. Heupel wins this poll with ease.

 

[Volfan76]

Majors didn’t walk into what Heupel did. Program under major investigation. Lost over 30 players to the portal. Negative recruiting that made it much more difficult to recruit. Scholarship reduction. SEC is much more competitive. Had to walk into Saban, Smart and Kelly. Worst recruiting violations in program history. Pruitt winning only 3 games.

Majors didn’t walk into anything remotely close to that.

You don't know what you are talking about....you just like to argue. I doubt you were even alive then. Tennessee hadn't even made a bowl game in 4 years before Majors got here. It took him 7 years to get up to 9 wins. The fact that Heupel had 11 wins in his 2nd year proves his situation was not that dire.

 

[ksgovols]

Jones no question. Dooley didn't sign a single O Line kid one year. DD was by far the worst recruiter of this group, so he would naturally leave the least amount of talent.

I think Majors signed like 43 kids the first year. They didn't have the restrictions in place and it was common to redshirt. But he inherited Streeter, Simpson, etc. The cupboard wasn't exactly bare.
Fulmer's 2008 team won the SEC East. They didn't forget how to play in 2 years and Kiffin told Taj Boyd and Bryce Petty to take a hike. QB's that Fulmer already had in the fold.
Dooley would have been gone 2 years earlier if not for Tyler Bray and decent wideouts. But he couldn't add to it.
Jones was a good recruiter but a horrible coach. He left Pruitt with more talent than Dooley left him.
Pruitt was also a decent recruiter, he was just in over his head. What was left after the transfer portal, did well under Heupel.
You can make a good argument that Heupel inherited little talent, but I'm not sure it was less than what Dooley left.

 

[WillisWG]

What amazes the most when I go back thru the older Media Guides is the size of the players we recruited during the 70s. Here's Johnny's first two signing classes, the heaviest player signed is a 265 pound tackle. 1978 class heaviest a 260 DT. This era's players would push those guys around pretty good.

 

[WillisWG]

You don't know what you are talking about....you just like to argue. I doubt you were even alive then. Tennessee hadn't even made a bowl game in 4 years before Majors got here. It took him 7 years to get up to 9 wins. The fact that Heupel had 11 wins in his 2nd year proves his situation was not that dire.

Tennessee hadn't even made a bowl game in 4 2 years before Majors got here. I enjoyed our 1974 Liberty Bowl W over Maryland. BOT may not have been alive then but I was. It is a fact Heupel had an 11 W season in year 2 but does not prove 'his situation was not that dire". So I am going with CJH coached up and made some excellent choices in transfer portal. Granted the transfer portal was not available to Johnny. But damn 6 recruiting classes later to get to 9 Ws.

In this era John Major would have been fired in his 4th year with a record of 21-23-1, if he made it that long.

 

[Jax_Vol]

50 points? Stanley Morgan, Larry Sievers, Mickey Marvin, Andy Spiva, Jesse Turbow, Roland James, Jim Noonan, Reggie Harper and Craig Puki would certainly disagreed.

Ok, 50 points may be strong. I was thinking about how slow we were in the mid-70's.

With that said, most of the players you list didn't play a big role in the 4-7 1977 team.

Check out this offensive line.

1977 Tennessee Volunteers Roster | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

1977 Tennessee Volunteers Roster

www.sports-reference.com

 

[Carp]

Heupel easily walked into the worst situation. Losing nearly 30 scholarship players, including several starters from a team that won 3 games the year prior. And then he starting the season with only like 60 scholarship players.

He also was very beneficial in that all this happened in the transfer portal era and he was able to bring a bunch of players that fit his system and who already had already been in college level strength and conditioning programs.

 

[WillisWG]

Ok, 50 points may be strong. I was thinking about how slow we were in the mid-70's.

With that said, most of the players you list didn't play a big role in the 4-7 1977 team.

Check out this offensive line.

1977 Tennessee Volunteers Roster | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

1977 Tennessee Volunteers Roster

www.sports-reference.com

and they weren't very big. I was digging thru the 1970 media guide, they was praising Chip Kell for shedding excess weight (12lbs)...he went from 252 to 240. A 240 lb OG!!!

Chip Kell - Football - University of Tennessee Athletics

Chip Kell (50) Offensive Guard - Chip Kell set the standard for blocking at Tennessee by earning All-America honors and winning the Jacobs Trophy as the SEC's best

utsports.com

Agree not all did but some.......

1978 Football Guide

Volunteers football media guide published in 1978. The team was led by coach Johnny Majors during this athletic season.

digital.lib.utk.edu

 

[Jax_Vol]

and they weren't very big. I was digging thru the 1970 media guide, they was praising Chip Kell for shedding excess weight (12lbs)...he went from 252 to 240. A 240 lb OG!!!

Chip Kell - Football - University of Tennessee Athletics

Chip Kell (50) Offensive Guard - Chip Kell set the standard for blocking at Tennessee by earning All-America honors and winning the Jacobs Trophy as the SEC's best

utsports.com

Agree not all did but some.......

1978 Football Guide

Volunteers football media guide published in 1978. The team was led by coach Johnny Majors during this athletic season.

digital.lib.utk.edu

View attachment 633710

Noonan would just blow up the center and tackle the backfield. But, he didn't have much help. Looks like Puki had two tackles that year.

We were winless in the conference until the last game of year. Battles left us in bad shape.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

You don't know what you are talking about....you just like to argue. I doubt you were even alive then. Tennessee hadn't even made a bowl game in 4 years before Majors got here. It took him 7 years to get up to 9 wins. The fact that Heupel had 11 wins in his 2nd year proves his situation was not that dire.

let’s look at it then shall we? You talk about it took Majors 7 years to get to 9 wins? Maybe that was more on him? You probably don’t want to think that huh? Since you want to act like Majors walked into a program in complete free fall let’s look at the two previous coaches and 13 years worth.

Doug Dickey- (64-69)- 46-15, won 9 games in year 4 finished with a .738 winning %.

Bill Battle- (70-76)- 59-22, finished with a .723 winnijg %.

While Battle did get worse in his tenure, his last year he went 6-5, a winning record. Bowls? So many have said bowls don’t matter so why mention them? If you actually looked at Battles last year, the 5 losses were extremely close. He didn’t suffer any real embarrassing blow outs. So what did Majors walk into really? Well he walked into a program that went 105-37 over the previous 13 seasons.

Now let’s look at the 13 years previous to Heupel. That’s 2008-2020.

Fulmer- (2008), 5-7, 41% winning %

Lame- (2009), 7-6, .538 winning %

Dooley- (2010-2012), 15-21, .417 winning %

Butch- (2013-2017), 34-27, .557 winning %

Pruitt- (2018-2020), 5-19, .208 winning %

I shouldn’t have to go on but you need educating so here we go. Now it’s widely accepted that the last 15 years or so have been the worst stretch in modern TN history. Data proves that and it’s not close. Now Pruitts record has been adjusted to reflect the absolute crap show he let Heupel. Heupel walked into a program that had a less than .500 winning % the previous 13 years.

So what does this tell us? Well Butch was the first coach to ever go winless in conference play. Then like I said let’s consider what Heupel had to deal with. The worst investigation into the football program in its history. Which led to scholarship reductions, negative recruiting and the overall national perception that we were cheaters and in the gutter. Then Pruitt lost over 30 players, had to play walk ons at positions they have never played and inherited a team that went 3-7 the year before.

Majors walked into a winning program and it took him 7 years to win 9. Even Butch won 9 games in less time. And please don’t try and act like Butch was a better coach. Seems like Majors just wasn’t that good early on. Because he took a winner and made it worse the first few years.

By all means, let’s see your expert analysis with actual data that says Majors walked into a much worse situation.

 

[WillisWG]

Noonan would just blow up the center and tackle the backfield. But, he didn't have much help. Looks like Puki had two tackles that year.

We were winless in the conference until the last game of year. Battles left us in bad shape.

Puki got hurt in the opener and was out for the season.

 

[knox73]

Hey fellows - I was there. Majors walked into the worst program in the SEC - Battle never coached another day and retired at age 34. It was the extreme "reach hire" that had no chance of long term success. Battle took a program that was at the top of the SEC following Dickey and torched it. If Majors had been hired to follow Dickey as he should have - there would have been no drop off. Battle is a nice man who simply could not recruit consistently or evaluate SEC talent. He was signing players not highly ranked by ETSU. It took years to win 9 games but climbing from the bottom to the top - can be a difficult journey. Heupel has done a terrific job but at no point in the post-Fulmer era was the program as low as it was in 1977. You can ask John Chavis that question the next time you see him. All coaches following Fulmer were legitimate head coaches or had serious SEC experience like Pruitt already. Hiring Battle was like elevating the TE Coach at TN now Abeln (?) to head coach. The new Lady Vol basketball coach is following a coach who made the NCAA tourney every year but is leaving a sad roster behind. The bottom was going to fall our under Kellie Harper next season - so don't blame Caldwell if she cannot work a quick miracle. Everyone knew Battle had doomed the program to a massive rebuild - and he might have gone winless in 1977 with the squad Majors coached to 4 wins. If Majors had had the transfer portal and could have flipped the roster - that would have been interesting. Majors was a phenomenal recruiter and program builder - but the OVC level squad he inherited certainly tested all patience and resilience to restore Tennessee to a quality SEC talent level. Johnny Majors undoubtedly took over the worst roster of any UT coach following General Neyland.

 

[#1fulmerite]

Hey fellows - I was there. Majors walked into the worst program in the SEC - Battle never coached another day and retired at age 34. It was the extreme "reach hire" that had no chance of long term success. Battle took a program that was at the top of the SEC following Dickey and torched it. If Majors had been hired to follow Dickey as he should have - there would have been no drop off. Battle is a nice man who simply could not recruit consistently or evaluate SEC talent. He was signing players not highly ranked by ETSU. It took years to win 9 games but climbing from the bottom to the top - can be a difficult journey. Heupel has done a terrific job but at no point in the post-Fulmer era was the program as low as it was in 1977. You can ask John Chavis that question the next time you see him. All coaches following Fulmer were legitimate head coaches or had serious SEC experience like Pruitt already. Hiring Battle was like elevating the TE Coach at TN now Abeln (?) to head coach. The new Lady Vol basketball coach is following a coach who made the NCAA tourney every year but is leaving a sad roster behind. The bottom was going to fall our under Kellie Harper next season - so don't blame Caldwell if she cannot work a quick miracle. Everyone knew Battle had doomed the program to a massive rebuild - and he might have gone winless in 1977 with the squad Majors coached to 4 wins. If Majors had had the transfer portal and could have flipped the roster - that would have been interesting. Majors was a phenomenal recruiter and program builder - but the OVC level squad he inherited certainly tested all patience and resilience to restore Tennessee to a quality SEC talent level. Johnny Majors undoubtedly took over the worst roster of any UT coach following General Neyland.

Thanks for the Majors era input. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I wasn’t around during that time so, I appreciate yours and any other posters comments of the beginning of his tenure.

 

[Jax_Vol]

Majors wished that 30 players had transferred out prior to the 1977 season.....lol!

He was stuck with a bunch of small guys. At least they were slow.

 

[WillisWG]

Just not buying the "it took CJM 7 years to win 9" as selling point. 6 recruiting classes?

From 58-63 we went 30-27-3, hired Dickey in 64 who went 4-5-1 in his 1st, then had back to back 8 win seasons then won 9 and a NC. Guess CDD's situation wasn't that dire since he won 9 in his 4th year.

Better remove CBJ from the list since he had back to back 9 W seasons in his 3/4 year.

 

[#1fulmerite]

Just not buying the "it took CJM 7 years to win 9" as selling point. 6 recruiting classes?

From 58-63 we went 30-27-3, hired Dickey in 64 who went 4-5-1 in his 1st, then had back to back 8 win seasons then won 9 and a NC. Guess CDD's situation wasn't that dire since he won 9 in his 4th year.

Better remove CBJ from the list since he had back to back 9 W seasons in his 3/4 year.

To be fair though, Jones had two more games each of those seasons compared to Johnny in the 70’s; who, by the way, had an extra game per season than Dickey to get nine wins.

 

[tsvol06]

Neyland

 

[ptcarter]

Neyland

Neyland was hired to beat Vanderbilt. We had trouble with them before he came.

 

[OldandStillaVol]

Yup. The roster Josh inherited would beat the group Johnny found by 50 points.

But, this crowd wasn't yet conceived.

Photo of Bill Battles' final team.

Cool card Jax. Lots of memories. Got a question though. The roster has Condredge Holloway as the QB and co-captain. I’m pretty sure his last year was 75. Huge drop off at QB after he left.

 

[Volfan76]

Tennessee hadn't even made a bowl game in 4 2 years before Majors got here. I enjoyed our 1974 Liberty Bowl W over Maryland. BOT may not have been alive then but I was. It is a fact Heupel had an 11 W season in year 2 but does not prove 'his situation was not that dire". So I am going with CJH coached up and made some excellent choices in transfer portal. Granted the transfer portal was not available to Johnny. But damn 6 recruiting classes later to get to 9 Ws.

In this era John Major would have been fired in his 4th year with a record of 21-23-1, if he made it that long.

Majors got here in 77 and made first bowl game in 79. Getting to 11 wins in 2nd year is a remarkable accomplishment but no way he does that in 78. My point is no coach I'm this day in age would have as much to overcome with a down program as a coach of that era would.

 

[wmcovol]

Johnny's 1st signing class. Reggie Harper is the 1st name that pops out but look at the size of the linemen. 265 pound tackle is the heaviest.

View attachment 633427

Different blocking rules then. 300lb guys couldn’t play on the OL and block with the rules in those days. When they allowed OL to use their hands, it changed it to sumo wrestling & huge OL guys became the norm.

 

[Volfan76]

let’s look at it then shall we? You talk about it took Majors 7 years to get to 9 wins? Maybe that was more on him? You probably don’t want to think that huh? Since you want to act like Majors walked into a program in complete free fall let’s look at the two previous coaches and 13 years worth.

Doug Dickey- (64-69)- 46-15, won 9 games in year 4 finished with a .738 winning %.

Bill Battle- (70-76)- 59-22, finished with a .723 winnijg %.

While Battle did get worse in his tenure, his last year he went 6-5, a winning record. Bowls? So many have said bowls don’t matter so why mention them? If you actually looked at Battles last year, the 5 losses were extremely close. He didn’t suffer any real embarrassing blow outs. So what did Majors walk into really? Well he walked into a program that went 105-37 over the previous 13 seasons.

Now let’s look at the 13 years previous to Heupel. That’s 2008-2020.

Fulmer- (2008), 5-7, 41% winning %

Lame- (2009), 7-6, .538 winning %

Dooley- (2010-2012), 15-21, .417 winning %

Butch- (2013-2017), 34-27, .557 winning %

Pruitt- (2018-2020), 5-19, .208 winning %

I shouldn’t have to go on but you need educating so here we go. Now it’s widely accepted that the last 15 years or so have been the worst stretch in modern TN history. Data proves that and it’s not close. Now Pruitts record has been adjusted to reflect the absolute crap show he let Heupel. Heupel walked into a program that had a less than .500 winning % the previous 13 years.

So what does this tell us? Well Butch was the first coach to ever go winless in conference play. Then like I said let’s consider what Heupel had to deal with. The worst investigation into the football program in its history. Which led to scholarship reductions, negative recruiting and the overall national perception that we were cheaters and in the gutter. Then Pruitt lost over 30 players, had to play walk ons at positions they have never played and inherited a team that went 3-7 the year before.

Majors walked into a winning program and it took him 7 years to win 9. Even Butch won 9 games in less time. And please don’t try and act like Butch was a better coach. Seems like Majors just wasn’t that good early on. Because he took a winner and made it worse the first few years.

By all means, let’s see your expert analysis with actual data that says Majors walked into a much worse situation.

I'm not going waste my time reading that, but feel free to keep on arguing. I'll throw you a disagreement every once in a while if it helps you keep the passion.

 

[Jax_Vol]

Cool card Jax. Lots of memories. Got a question though. The roster has Condredge Holloway as the QB and co-captain. I’m pretty sure his last year was 75. Huge drop off at QB after he left.

Been a long time, so my memories are admittedly fuzzy. However, I do know that Condredge did not play for Johnny.

Thinking that a very young Streater might have been forced into action during Major's first year. Unsure if the original starter was injured or what...? Or, we just had to go young.

Interesting era in that Pat Ryan was a quarterback on some of those teams. He went on to last over a decade in NFL. However, he was a pro-style arm with no legs. That skill set didn't translate to the college game in that era.

Willis has a better memory than me and can correct as need be.