Which programs could be better?

[SCRocket]

Tiny private school with less than 8000 students (lowest in the ACC), overshadowed by UNC, NC State and Duke in terms of exposure...in a state not known for blue chip talent?

Respectfully disagree.

A lot of talent here. More than you think. My point was that really any of those schools in my area should be better than they are. There is enough talent here to compete with anybody.

 

[Lawrence Wright]

A lot of talent here. More than you think. My point was that really any of those schools in my area should be better than they are. There is enough talent here to compete with anybody.

But you only mentioned Wake Forest, not “any of the schools in your area”.

Should UNC and State be better consistently? Absolutely.

Wake Forest? Come on man...

 

[Unconditional Surrender]

Rutgers and Virginia Tech.

 

[Unconditional Surrender]

UNC
USCjr
UVA
VT
Maryland
Cal

Solid list. Sub UCLA for Cal though.

 

[SCRocket]

But you only mentioned Wake Forest, not “any of the schools in your area”.

Should UNC and State be better consistently? Absolutely.

Wake Forest? Come on man...

Ah come on man I was just using them as an example. It’s not a thesis.

 

[Lawrence Wright]

Ah come on man I was just using them as an example. It’s not a thesis.

Lucky for you it’s not.

 

[SCRocket]

Lucky for you it’s not.

Haha Life is too short for me not to laugh even at myself from time to time

 

[volfanbill]

South Carolina seems like the easy answer, but the rise of Clemson has been difficult to contend with. The “Spurrier Era” may have been the ceiling for them. Even with Spurrier, they only had one SECCG appearance and got embarrassed by Auburn. Texas A&M should be much better than they are especially with the fertile recruiting grounds of Texas.

I really think people are underestimating what Fisher has already done at aTm. Two great recruiting classes and a brutal schedule last year, yet they were still rather successful. They’re an incredibly young, yet incredibly talented team. I think they turn a huge corner next year, and will be beast by 2021. Just tough because the SEC West will always have 3 beasts every year. I’m not making excuses for previous years, I just expect them to come into their own the next couple of seasons. Huge donors, great recruiting and a crazy passionate fan base.

 

[LouderVol]

I really think people are underestimating what Fisher has already done at aTm. Two great recruiting classes and a brutal schedule last year, yet they were still rather successful. They’re an incredibly young, yet incredibly talented team. I think they turn a huge corner next year, and will be beast by 2021. Just tough because the SEC West will always have 3 beasts every year. I’m not making excuses for previous years, I just expect them to come into their own the next couple of seasons. Huge donors, great recruiting and a crazy passionate fan base.

Their best win was OK state. By a mile.

Their results look just like UTs. Ole Miss, Miss State, Arkansas, South Carolina, UT even had a better SEC record. They feasted on the same cupcakes as us.

No idea what their team looks like but at a million a win I am not impressed.

 

[05_never_again]

A lot of talent here. More than you think. My point was that really any of those schools in my area should be better than they are. There is enough talent here to compete with anybody.

I agree with you on the point that there's more football talent in North Carolina than you think, but Wake Forest is never going to be in a position to be a beneficiary of it. Neither is Duke - not just because they are so committed to basketball, but also because they are a small private school.

That leaves UNC and NC State. Both North Carolina and NC State should be better at football than they are, as they are both 2 big in-state public schools. It's kind of obvious why North Carolina isn't (too focused on basketball, simply don't care enough about football) but NC State doesn't really have that excuse.

 

[volfanbill]

Their best win was OK state. By a mile.

Their results look just like UTs. Ole Miss, Miss State, Arkansas, South Carolina, UT even had a better SEC record. They feasted on the same cupcakes as us.

No idea what their team looks like but at a million a win I am not impressed.

This is what you just wrote in less prettier words:

I'm not doing research, but I want to be biased because I don't like them so they aren't good.

They lost to Clemson, Bama, Auburn, LSU, and UGA (see my remark about brutal schedule)

4th best recruiting class last year. Sitting at 6th best this year. He's outrecruiting Pruitt so far, and has a better record.

There is absolutely ZERO merit to the idea that Fisher should already have them going 37-0 each year just because he makes a bunch of money. There's no fair, justifiable way to show that. yet.

 

[SCRocket]

I agree with you on the point that there's more football talent in North Carolina than you think, but Wake Forest is never going to be in a position to be a beneficiary of it. Neither is Duke - not just because they are so committed to basketball, but also because they are a small private school.

That leaves UNC and NC State. Both North Carolina and NC State should be better at football than they are, as they are both 2 big in-state public schools. It's kind of obvious why North Carolina isn't (too focused on basketball, simply don't care enough about football) but NC State doesn't really have that excuse.

I agree with you. I should have said that Clemson shouldn’t be the only elite program in the area.

 

[05_never_again]

This is what you just wrote in less prettier words:

I'm not doing research, but I want to be biased because I don't like them so they aren't good.

They lost to Clemson, Bama, Auburn, LSU, and UGA (see my remark about brutal schedule)

4th best recruiting class last year. Sitting at 6th best this year. He's outrecruiting Pruitt so far, and has a better record.

There is absolutely ZERO merit to the idea that Fisher should already have them going 37-0 each year just because he makes a bunch of money. There's no fair, justifiable way to show that. yet.

Fisher isn't there to lose to all the good teams they play. Fisher's marks there so far would be fine if A&M had modest expectations, but they see themselves as a program that should be contending for titles. Auburn was the only game from this year that I think they'd like to have back, maybe Georgia. But if Fisher continues to lose every time they play a good team, they'll get restless. Next year, I bet A&M fans are thinking they can win the West (or almost win it) and finish in the top 10. Clemson and Georgia drop off the schedule and are replaced by Colorado and Vanderbilt.

 

[RDU VOL#14]

I agree with you on the point that there's more football talent in North Carolina than you think, but Wake Forest is never going to be in a position to be a beneficiary of it. Neither is Duke - not just because they are so committed to basketball, but also because they are a small private school.

That leaves UNC and NC State. Both North Carolina and NC State should be better at football than they are, as they are both 2 big in-state public schools. It's kind of obvious why North Carolina isn't (too focused on basketball, simply don't care enough about football) but NC State doesn't really have that excuse.

It’s simple and I know because I’ve lived the majority of my life there. They Don’t Get It. They don’t.

UNC thinks they can be, but in reality football is just another hiccup until basketball. Yeah they might have an uptick every 5 or 6 year where they can maybe get 9-10 wins, but it’s not something they really believe in. They don’t bleed football 24/7, they don’t know how to. Maybe a small percentage of their fans do, but the real Carolina fans are way more interested in basketball because they actually believe they can win.

NC State can decide what they want to be. They were once a competitive basketball school, but now they can’t get out of UNC and Duke’s shadow. They have had some very talented football players, but they can’t turn that into success by getting over the hump with Clemson or FSU in their division. More so than any other school in the ACC, their fan base would love to join the SEC. They are the biggest redheaded step child of any league in the P5 and if they could get an upper hand on UNC they would take it in a heartbeat. State fans mostly hate UNC more than they like NC State.

Duke has had great success by Duke standards under Cut. However, the fans won’t come to games. I saw more pathetic promotions to get people to games this past seasons and they still wouldn’t come. You can have some really great players like Daniel Jones, but you can’t sell the team as a whole when the gameday experience is similar to a Minor League baseball game.

Wake is the after thought of all the Tobacco Road schools. They are in Winston, they are the smallest of the schools, they have the least fans. Everybody calls them ”Little Switzerland” because they are neutral. You don’t really like them or dislike them. If you are an instate kid you aren’t picking Wake over UNC, State, Duke and formerly ECU. Throw App in the conversation and they have to get kids and then redshirt them and try to get 5 years out of all of them. Wake has a great model, but its just so difficult to go more than 7-8 wins, especially in the Atlantic.

These teams can have some success, but I don’t believe they will ever be able to sustain long term success.

 

[volfanbill]

Fisher isn't there to lose to all the good teams they play. Fisher's marks there so far would be fine if A&M had modest expectations, but they see themselves as a program that should be contending for titles. Auburn was the only game from this year that I think they'd like to have back, maybe Georgia. But if Fisher continues to lose every time they play a good team, they'll get restless. Next year, I bet A&M fans are thinking they can win the West (or almost win it) and finish in the top 10. Clemson and Georgia drop off the schedule and are replaced by Colorado and Vanderbilt.

Pruitt isn't here to lose to all the top teams either. #fahrpruitt #fahrfisher

 

[05_never_again]

Pruitt isn't here to lose to all the top teams either. #fahrpruitt #fahrfisher

Yes, which is also why if a couple years from now he's still consistently losing to Florida/Georgia/Alabama he'll be gone too.

 

[volfanbill]

Yes, which is also why if a couple years from now he's still consistently losing to Florida/Georgia/Alabama he'll be gone too.

Which is why I said “yet”. Why I stated what he’s done so far is underestimated. Just as it’s unfair to discredit Pruitt for losing to the Bamas of the world at this point, it’s unfair to discredit Fisher for it

 

[05_never_again]

UNC thinks they can be, but in reality football is just another hiccup until basketball. Yeah they might have an uptick every 5 or 6 year where they can maybe get 9-10 wins, but it’s not something they really believe in. They don’t bleed football 24/7, they don’t know how to. Maybe a small percentage of their fans do, but the real Carolina fans are way more interested in basketball because they actually believe they can win.

The interesting thing about all of this though is that at some point, you think money would talk. The ROI/financial rewards for being successful are simply so much more in football than basketball. I totally get how it is really unlikely that schools like Wake or Duke could be consistently good at football even if they committed a lot of resources towards it. Therefore they focus their efforts in other areas and other sports.

Like I said earlier in the thread though, no school voluntarily chooses to be a basketball school. Or at least they don't if the objective is to bring in money. I get that UNC and that part of the country generally is basketball crazy. Football is never going to be #1 there. However, it doesn't seem like their craziness about basketball should preclude them from putting more resources into football. UNC still brings in more money from football than they do basketball, and they aren't even good at football. Even Duke brings in roughly the same amount of money from football as it does basketball. Simply because football is the more popular sport generally speaking.

Honestly, the only schools who should be true "basketball schools" are the Dukes/Wakes/Vandys of the world (Yeah, Vandy should really try and be a basketball school. They simply are never going to be consistently good at football, no matter how hard they try). Any other large public institution should focus on football and try and be good at that, unless perhaps it is located in a total wasteland as far as a recruiting area.

Take Kentucky...another good example. Kentucky brings in way more money from football than basketball. They pay Calipari double what Stoops makes, yet Cal is ultimately responsible for a revenue stream that's much smaller. Kentucky made an institutional decision decades ago that basketball was "their sport" for some reason, even though they are in a great football conference and not as far away from good recruiting areas as you might think (Ohio and Virginia aren't that far away). It's why Bear Bryant ultimately left. Now, if Kentucky decided decades ago to be a football school, would they be as good at football as they have been at basketball? No, but when you think of this stuff in economic terms it doesn't really make sense.

 

[05_never_again]

Which is why I said “yet”. Why I stated what he’s done so far is underestimated. Just as it’s unfair to discredit Pruitt for losing to the Bamas of the world at this point, it’s unfair to discredit Fisher for it

Jimbo inherited a program in much better shape than the one Pruitt inherited, and is able to recruit at a higher level than Pruitt right out of the gate. I don't think what Jimbo has done so far is underestimated at all. Sumlin was a consistent 8-5 coach there; Jimbo thus far has continued the trend. Both of them win and lose the games they are "supposed to."

 

[zooguy]

Sumlin lost games he wasn’t supposed to lose. Jimbo only has 2 classes of his players so far (2020 hasn’t played). Sumlin left Jimbo nothing. Most of his talent are underclassmen. He had 2 Sr starters - center and punter and only 3 srs in the two deep. You don’t win in the SEC with underclassmen. You may think A&M is more talented, but they really aren’t. Their SEC schedule does not equal Tennessee’s. LSU, Bama, Auburn, Georgia - 4 top 10 teams plus Clemson. They didn’t lose to anyone they should not have lost to. TN lost to Georgia State and BYU.

 

[volfanbill]

Jimbo inherited a program in much better shape than the one Pruitt inherited, and is able to recruit at a higher level than Pruitt right out of the gate. I don't think what Jimbo has done so far is underestimated at all. Sumlin was a consistent 8-5 coach there; Jimbo thus far has continued the trend. Both of them win and lose the games they are "supposed to."

Butch had talent on the roster Pruitt inherited. But it wasn’t Pruitt’s talent and Sumlin’s talent wasn’t Fisher’s. Fisher’s “worst” loss was to Miss St his first year. It’s just unfair to not admit to Fisher doing a rebuild while giving Pruitt that luxury.

 

[05_never_again]

Butch had talent on the roster Pruitt inherited. But it wasn’t Pruitt’s talent and Sumlin’s talent wasn’t Fisher’s. Fisher’s “worst” loss was to Miss St his first year. It’s just unfair to not admit to Fisher doing a rebuild while giving Pruitt that luxury.

Jimbo inherited a QB, a decent offensive line, and some skill players. Mond regressed somehow in his second season under Jimbo. I'll concede that Jimbo does need to rebuild the defense; Sumlin's weren't very good.

Pruitt inherited some good WRs...that's about it as far as the offense goes.

 

[SCRocket]

It’s simple and I know because I’ve lived the majority of my life there. They Don’t Get It. They don’t.

UNC thinks they can be, but in reality football is just another hiccup until basketball. Yeah they might have an uptick every 5 or 6 year where they can maybe get 9-10 wins, but it’s not something they really believe in. They don’t bleed football 24/7, they don’t know how to. Maybe a small percentage of their fans do, but the real Carolina fans are way more interested in basketball because they actually believe they can win.

NC State can decide what they want to be. They were once a competitive basketball school, but now they can’t get out of UNC and Duke’s shadow. They have had some very talented football players, but they can’t turn that into success by getting over the hump with Clemson or FSU in their division. More so than any other school in the ACC, their fan base would love to join the SEC. They are the biggest redheaded step child of any league in the P5 and if they could get an upper hand on UNC they would take it in a heartbeat. State fans mostly hate UNC more than they like NC State.

Duke has had great success by Duke standards under Cut. However, the fans won’t come to games. I saw more pathetic promotions to get people to games this past seasons and they still wouldn’t come. You can have some really great players like Daniel Jones, but you can’t sell the team as a whole when the gameday experience is similar to a Minor League baseball game.

Wake is the after thought of all the Tobacco Road schools. They are in Winston, they are the smallest of the schools, they have the least fans. Everybody calls them ”Little Switzerland” because they are neutral. You don’t really like them or dislike them. If you are an instate kid you aren’t picking Wake over UNC, State, Duke and formerly ECU. Throw App in the conversation and they have to get kids and then redshirt them and try to get 5 years out of all of them. Wake has a great model, but its just so difficult to go more than 7-8 wins, especially in the Atlantic.

These teams can have some success, but I don’t believe they will ever be able to sustain long term success.

Born and raised in Gaffney SC. I disagree. There is so much talent around me. If any of those schools get it together they could be another Clemson.

 

[05_never_again]

Born and raised in Gaffney SC. I disagree. There is so much talent around me. If any of those schools get it together they could be another Clemson.

I think there are a lot of schools are asking themselves that question that these days. "If Clemson, who has a pretty good though not spectacular football history can go on a tear like that, why can't we?"

Especially considering the guy doing it (Dabo) was an absolute nobody at the time he took over. Hell, until Dabo started winning big time, Clemson would probably be #1 on a list of "why aren't they better?" programs.

 

[RDU VOL#14]

Born and raised in Gaffney SC. I disagree. There is so much talent around me. If any of those schools get it together they could be another Clemson.

I’m 37 and Clemson has been a football school for as long as I can remember. They are basically an SEC school in the ACC. They’ve had some basketball success I just doubt that the other Tobacco Road schools have the will to become an elite football program. Not many schools can pull off being elite at both and basketball isn’t going anywhere in Chapel Hill (maybe this year ) but I don’t think they have the stomach to be an elite football school because I think they think they are above everything that comes along with being a good football program. They are especially snake bitten after the whole thing in 2010 & 11.