Which programs could be better?

[05_never_again]

I’m 37 and Clemson has been a football school for as long as I can remember. They are basically an SEC school in the ACC. They’ve had some basketball success I just doubt that the other Tobacco Road schools have the will to become an elite football program. Not many schools can pull off being elite at both and basketball isn’t going anywhere in Chapel Hill (maybe this year ) but I don’t think they have the stomach to be an elite football school because I think they think they are above everything that comes along with being a good football program. They are especially snake bitten after the whole thing in 2010 & 11.

Please elaborate.

...and I don't think UNC can or necessarily "should" be elite at both. They could still be better at basketball than football, but football could be a lot better. Kind of like a reverse Ohio St. Ohio St is clearly a football school and is better at football, but the basketball program is pretty good too. Michigan St, Florida, Wisconsin, etc. are typically good at both sports as well.

 

[Unconditional Surrender]

Please elaborate.

UNC and them are unwilling to break any rules for the sake of sports.

 

[05_never_again]

UNC and them are unwilling to break any rules for the sake of sports.

Blue font?

 

[LouderVol]

This is what you just wrote in less prettier words:

I'm not doing research, but I want to be biased because I don't like them so they aren't good.

They lost to Clemson, Bama, Auburn, LSU, and UGA (see my remark about brutal schedule)

4th best recruiting class last year. Sitting at 6th best this year. He's outrecruiting Pruitt so far, and has a better record.

There is absolutely ZERO merit to the idea that Fisher should already have them going 37-0 each year just because he makes a bunch of money. There's no fair, justifiable way to show that. yet.

Fisher walked into a better situation than Pruitt. As a more experienced, national title winning, coach. Which makes him by default a top 10 coach, and is probably number 5 right now. He is sitting in great recruiting area with unlimited resources at his disposal.

Never did I argue he should be undefeated. I would expect him to pull off some victories he "shouldnt" have. With all that talent he hasnt produced. Any other contract and there would be talk about him having to improve. They lost by an average of 20 points per game.

LSU went thru a worse run than TAMU. It can be done. Lightning in a bottle or not Jimbo has got to do more.

They re 8th in overall talent. Ahead of Clemson and 9 places ahead of TN. To even be having the conversation they are on our level, or we on theirs, shows what is going on.

It can change, but year 2 didnt show it. Which is the point of this thread.

 

[LouderVol]

Which is why I said “yet”. Why I stated what he’s done so far is underestimated. Just as it’s unfair to discredit Pruitt for losing to the Bamas of the world at this point, it’s unfair to discredit Fisher for it

Despite all that you were arguing FOR fisher he is now on Pruitts level? Or Tamu down at the bottom with UT?

 

[RDU VOL#14]

Please elaborate.

...and I don't think UNC can or necessarily "should" be elite at both. They could still be better at basketball than football, but football could be a lot better. Kind of like a reverse Ohio St. Ohio St is clearly a football school and is better at football, but the basketball program is pretty good too. Michigan St, Florida, Wisconsin, etc. are typically good at both sports as well.

I agree that UNC should be better at football. As others have said, there is a lot of talent in the state, the problem is that because UNC has never established itself as big time program schools like us, like UGA, UF, Clemson, etc.. have always stolen a ton of talent from North Carolina. Those schools you mentioned are all football schools first and basketball second. You might argue Michigan State could be bball first, but it’s about as close as it gets.

UNC is often referred to as the “Sleeping Giant” around the Triangle area. They have been for as long as I remember. Every time they have something positive happen, something bad often follows. In the 90’s Mack Brown had a pretty good thing going and then left for greener pastures at Texas. Then came a decade + long era of mediocre to bad football, then Butch Davis showed up and brought in a bunch of elite prospects and then they get popped by the NCAA because of Marvin Austin and others, not to mention having John Blake on staff. UNC admins have always held their academics in high regard and while they were embarrassed by the agents, they were much more embarrassed by the Academic scandal. They associate anyone who is into big time football as corrupt and they are still eager to stay away from the stigma of the academic scandal.

Economically what you said makes sense, and they have sold out their football games this season, but I don‘t think there is any long term dedication to winning. UNC and the “Carolina Way” believe their brand has been tarnished because of big time football.

 

[05_never_again]

I agree that UNC should be better at football. As others have said, there is a lot of talent in the state, the problem is that because UNC has never established itself as big time program schools like us, like UGA, UF, Clemson, etc.. have always stolen a ton of talent from North Carolina. Those schools you mentioned are all football schools first and basketball second. You might argue Michigan State could be bball first, but it’s about as close as it gets.

UNC is often referred to as the “Sleeping Giant” around the Triangle area. They have been for as long as I remember. Every time they have something positive happen, something bad often follows. In the 90’s Mack Brown had a pretty good thing going and then left for greener pastures at Texas. Then came a decade + long era of mediocre to bad football, then Butch Davis showed up and brought in a bunch of elite prospects and then they get popped by the NCAA because of Marvin Austin and others, not to mention having John Blake on staff. UNC admins have always held their academics in high regard and while they were embarrassed by the agents, they were much more embarrassed by the Academic scandal. They associate anyone who is into big time football as corrupt and they are still eager to stay away from the stigma of the academic scandal.

Economically what you said makes sense, and they have sold out their football games this season, but I don‘t think there is any long term dedication to winning. UNC and the “Carolina Way” believe their brand has been tarnished because of big time football.

It seems like it'd be a great head coaching job though. The admin doesn't expect a whole lot from you, yet there are some pieces in place that would allow you to actually be good. That sounds like a recipe to consistently beat expectations, until of course the admin decides to raise them once you start consistently punching above your weight.

Stewart Mandel's list (a few years old, but still relevant): https://www.foxsports.com/college-f...-arizona-state-maryland-underachievers-070815

 

[RDU VOL#14]

It seems like it'd be a great head coaching job though. The admin doesn't expect a whole lot from you, yet there are some pieces in place that would allow you to actually be good. That sounds like a recipe to consistently beat expectations, until of course the admin decides to raise them once you start consistently punching above your weight.

Stewart Mandel's list (a few years old, but still relevant): https://www.foxsports.com/college-f...-arizona-state-maryland-underachievers-070815

It should be a good job. I think it could be a really good job if they could get a decent coach that loves UNC and doesn’t view it as a steppingstone and could build it and then hand it off. Similar to Mike Belotti and Oregon . Maybe that will happen with Mack, I don’t know. I hope not, but it’s possible.

Fun fact: Duke, Wake, UVA, Va Tech, GT, and evening B1G Maryland have won ACC Football titles more recently than UNC. They should have a pretty cool 40th anniversary party this season at Kenan. And I thought I was embarrassed celebrating the 20 year 98 anniversary.

 

[GVF]

North Carolina and Maryland are the two that always come to mind to me. Also agree with LW on Illinois.

Can't say I agree on Ole Miss and South Carolina. SC didn't really become competitive on many fronts until the 00's (recruiting, facilities, support, etc). And Ole Miss has never really had the same advantages as places like Bama, us, Georgia, and Florida.

But UNC and Maryland should both have been way more successful than they have been. Both are in good recruiting territory. Both are flagship state schools. Both have immense advantages. And both have mostly been mediocre at football.

With Illinois, the contrast between them and Michigan is very dramatic. Should have similar advantages, but one is a powerhouse in football (and basketball) and the other has sucked for most of its history at football (and off-and-on with basketball).



I would say GT has been immensely successful historically; just not so much lately. They do have one major disadvantage, though, in that they are basically an engineering / tech school with extremely high academic standards. Though, I still think they made a major mistake hiring Paul Johnson. He's a great coach, but GT can recruit top athletes; they didn't need to adopt a "service academy strategy"; it has hurt them over the long-run. Paul Johnson would've made more sense at Vandy than GT.

I used to love watching GT back in the Pepper Rogers days. It was fun football.

 

[GVF]

I included Ole Miss because they have money, fans/admin/boosters who really want to win, and are located right in the middle of a talent pool (the State of Mississippi itself, West Tennessee, Louisiana, etc.). Of course, they have to go head-to-head against bigger schools for that talent, but that brings up the question "Why have those bigger schools become the bigger schools to begin with?" The gap between Ole Miss and schools like Alabama, LSU, Auburn, etc. was nowhere near as big 40 years ago, but it became that way over time. I've heard that integration disproportionately hurt them. I agree that South Carolina didn't become competitive until the 2000s...the question then is why? South Carolina has great location relative to a talent pool, yet has a virtual total lack of historical success.

UVA is an interesting one, as is Georgia Tech. Especially Tech. Both are academically-focused institutions that aren't going to sell out their reputation to be really good at football. Having said that, Georgia Tech is located in the epicenter of the single-best metro area on the planet for CFB recruiting, and it does seem like they could be better at football if they wanted to. Hell, they even have a more recent national title than Georgia does. I don't think it's really part of the culture of the institution to be good at football. Totally anecdotal, but at the 2017 season opener against them, 75% of the Tech students who were there were engineering nerds who were on their phones the entire time. When they got stopped on the 2-point play in OT, a group of about 5 of them in front of us looked up from their phones, said "What happened?", laughed when they saw they got stopped, and walked out.

GT will have to change focus. The D1 talent that wants to play in GA and misses the boat at UGA will go to Kennesaw or Ga Southern first. Mainly because most of that talent that didn't get SEC can't get into GT.

 

[Tennesseefan2019]

GT will have to change focus. The D1 talent that wants to play in GA and misses the boat at UGA will go to Kennesaw or Ga Southern first. Mainly because most of that talent that didn't get SEC can't get into GT.

I think GT will turn things around in the next 2-3 years. I think GT goes 5-7 in 2020 and 7-5 in 2021. Georgia Tech has a #20 rated recruiting class and will be competitive sooner than people think.

 

[GVF]

Other than Texas, I think there are OK reasons why the other programs aren't good/aren't good anymore.

Miami is one of the most interesting and unique programs in all of CFB. If you look at them just in terms of national championships won, they actually have been a wildly successful program (5 national titles since 1983). However, despite their football success and overall image they actually are a small private school with a good academic reputation, and the academic side and athletic side are in perpetual conflict. Miami isn't quite the academic school that Vanderbilt is, but you can kind of picture them like if Vandy had these periods of time where they were really good at football, even winning multiple titles. Weird, right?

As for Colorado and Nebraska, I think those schools are places that you actually shouldn't expect to find great programs. A huge part of Nebraska's story I think is just for that reason...you wouldn't necessarily expect a CFB powerhouse to come from there. Neither Nebraska or Colorado are high population states, neither produce much football talent, and both states are relatively far away from locations that do produce football talent. At present, both are poor fits in their conference. The only things Nebraska has going for it at the moment are their history and a large, passionate fanbase/administration that will spend money and try to improve the program. Colorado, unless I'm missing something, doesn't really have a whole lot going for it.

There is more to that statement than people realize. Miami is a very good academic school and the president (she I think) is totally pro-academic. Football situation is second fiddle to her. And whoever the past presidents were in their dominant years I think pulled bac from the program when they started getting busted on violations and image. They weren't willing to sacrifice the academic image for football.

 

[GVF]

I think GT will turn things around in the next 2-3 years. I think GT goes 5-7 in 2020 and 7-5 in 2021. Georgia Tech has a #20 rated recruiting class and will be competitive sooner than people think.

They better aim high. Bohannon has built a tremendous FCS program up the road at Kennesaw. He will steal a recruit here and there. And why he hasn't been plucked into a FBS program in all these rollovers is beyond me. He is a first time HC in FCS and has 5 years under his belt. Kick started a new football program as a first time HC, and has been lights out. And he was with PJ at GT. I'm surprised they didn't go back after him with the success he's had at KSU.

 

[Tennesseefan2019]

They better aim high. Bohannon has built a tremendous FCS program up the road at Kennesaw. He will steal a recruit here and there. And why he hasn't been plucked into a FBS program in all these rollovers is beyond me. He is a first time HC in FCS and has 5 years under his belt. Kick started a new football program as a first time HC, and has been lights out. And he was with PJ at GT. I'm surprised they didn't go back after him with the success he's had at KSU.

I could see Brian Bohannon being hired as head coach of UAB when and if Bill Clark leaves UAB in the next few years for a bigger school which I think he will. Nobody running the athletic department at Georgia Tech wants a head coach who runs an option offense. They think the option offense led to smaller attendance at games the last 4 seasons that Paul Johnson coached Georgia Tech.

 

[GVF]

Call me weird for thinking they can achieve sustained success, but I'd have to put Kentucky on the list. Right in the middle of midwestern and southern recruits that they can steal when they get passed over. And it should be a good list for them to chase. They are in an ideal location to steal bread crumbs from the neighbors tables. Midwestern meat for the lines, and to the south for speed. the menu of CPF days. Went to the midwest and Jersey for the big boys, and down south and california for the speed.

 

[05_never_again]

GT will have to change focus. The D1 talent that wants to play in GA and misses the boat at UGA will go to Kennesaw or Ga Southern first. Mainly because most of that talent that didn't get SEC can't get into GT.

Tech seems like a school that at least at the moment isn't willing to compromise academics for athletics. Tech isn't good in any sport as far as I know. That's in contrast to a place like UNC, which has a good academic reputation but very clearly is willing to sell out to be good at athletics (especially basketball).

 

[Tennesseefan2019]

Call me weird for thinking they can achieve sustained success, but I'd have to put Kentucky on the list. Right in the middle of midwestern and southern recruits that they can steal when they get passed over. And it should be a good list for them to chase. They are in an ideal location to steal bread crumbs from the neighbors tables. Midwestern meat for the lines, and to the south for speed. the menu of CPF days. Went to the midwest and Jersey for the big boys, and down south and california for the speed.

I think Louisville with Coach Satterfield will wind up overtaking Kentucky. I think Kentucky will be around 5-7 wins in the regular season most of the time.

 

[Tennesseefan2019]

Tech seems like a school that at least at the moment isn't willing to compromise academics for athletics. Tech isn't good in any sport as far as I know. That's in contrast to a place like UNC, which has a good academic reputation but very clearly is willing to sell out to be good at athletics (especially basketball).

Talent is starting to come into Georgia Tech their 2020 recruiting class is ranked #20.

 

[GVF]

I could see Brian Bohannon being hired as head coach of UAB when and if Bill Clark leaves UAB in the next few years for a bigger school which I think he will. Nobody running the athletic department at Georgia Tech wants a head coach who runs an option offense. They think the option offense led to smaller attendance at games the last 4 seasons that Paul Johnson coached Georgia Tech.

I looked around and couldn't find...Did Bohannon take the option with him to KSU? His dad was all pro style in HS coaching. Maybe that's why he hasn't been cherry picked yet.

I'm skeptical Clark will ever leave UAB. He put too much of himself into that place to keep them ready to re-up the program.

 

[05_never_again]

Call me weird for thinking they can achieve sustained success, but I'd have to put Kentucky on the list. Right in the middle of midwestern and southern recruits that they can steal when they get passed over. And it should be a good list for them to chase. They are in an ideal location to steal bread crumbs from the neighbors tables.

The only reason Kentucky is a basketball school is because they made a decision as an institution to do that when Adolph Rupp was there. Football wasn't head and shoulders above basketball in popularity in those days; it wasn't as obvious of a choice which one you should "pick" in those days. I think you're 100% right that despite having no in-state talent, they aren't far away from some good recruiting areas (particularly Ohio and Virginia). If Kentucky chose football back in the day, I don't think they ever would have been as good at football as they have been at basketball, but they'd probably be a lot better at football than they are.

West Virginia is another school you could put in that category. No in-state talent, but close to Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Virginia. The real factor working against them at the moment is a really poor conference fit. Similar situation to Nebraska and Colorado.

 

[GVF]

I think Louisville with Coach Satterfield will wind up overtaking Kentucky. I think Kentucky will be around 5-7 wins in the regular season most of the time.

Except KY can sell SEC exposure vs. ACC.

 

[RDU VOL#14]

Call me weird for thinking they can achieve sustained success, but I'd have to put Kentucky on the list. Right in the middle of midwestern and southern recruits that they can steal when they get passed over. And it should be a good list for them to chase. They are in an ideal location to steal bread crumbs from the neighbors tables. Midwestern meat for the lines, and to the south for speed. the menu of CPF days. Went to the midwest and Jersey for the big boys, and down south and california for the speed.

Aren’t they kind of doing that now? I don’t think it ever gets higher than where it was in 2018 and then to get a good bowl win this season over Virginia Tech. I think this is about UK’s ceiling these past 2 years.

 

[SCRocket]

I’m 37 and Clemson has been a football school for as long as I can remember. They are basically an SEC school in the ACC. They’ve had some basketball success I just doubt that the other Tobacco Road schools have the will to become an elite football program. Not many schools can pull off being elite at both and basketball isn’t going anywhere in Chapel Hill (maybe this year ) but I don’t think they have the stomach to be an elite football school because I think they think they are above everything that comes along with being a good football program. They are especially snake bitten after the whole thing in 2010 & 11.

I’m 46 and Clemson wasn’t good when I was growing up lol. I was too young to remember their championship is 80 or whenever it was. I do have to say that the Clemson agricultural department has been great at doing things with our peach farmers etc. But I digress.

 

[05_never_again]

Aren’t they kind of doing that now? I don’t think it ever gets higher than where it was in 2018 and then to get a good bowl win this season over Virginia Tech. I think this is about UK’s ceiling these past 2 years.

Yeah, but it's just 2 years. If there was more of a commitment to football there over time, I think Kentucky would have been able to do that way more often over the years.

They are in the best football conference, and their recruiting situation, while not ideal, is better than most people realize.

 

[Tennesseefan2019]

I looked around and couldn't find...Did Bohannon take the option with him to KSU? His dad was all pro style in HS coaching. Maybe that's why he hasn't been cherry picked yet.

I'm skeptical Clark will ever leave UAB. He put too much of himself into that place to keep them ready to re-up the program.

Brian Bohannon runs the same option offense at Kennesaw State that Paul Johnson ran at Georgia Tech