Who is really behind the protests?

#76
#76
KB5252 said:
Maybe, but what does this have to do with politics?

A christian not knowing the history of Judaism has much less of an effect on the country than a liberal who knows little about the workings of government or it's history.
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understatement!
 
#77
#77
KB5252 said:
Maybe, but what does this have to do with politics?

A christian not knowing the history of Judaism has much less of an effect on the country than a liberal who knows little about the workings of government or it's history.
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This comparison is about as useful as the "Post Office vs FedEx" one.
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I seriously doubt that
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We really need sarcasm meter.

I was trying to illustrate that my comment makes about as much sense as KB's does.
 
#79
#79
VERY interesting story about where the "death panel" rumor came from, how it is utterly 100 percent false, and how some on the right are perpetuating, despite knowing that it is false, because they see it as an opportunity to weaken a president they disagree with on a more fundamental level.

NYT: ?Death panel? rumor has familiar roots - The New York Times- msnbc.com

It remains very disturbing to me that such significant political conservatives, despite knowing that death panels are not in this bill, and despite knowing that health care reform is vital in the nation's best interests, would continue to promote the false claim just to bring Obama's numbers down.

They should be ashamed of themselves.
 
#80
#80
lawgator1 said:
VERY interesting story about where the "death panel" rumor came from, how it is utterly 100 percent false, and how some on the right are perpetuating, despite knowing that it is false, because they see it as an opportunity to weaken a president they disagree with on a more fundamental level.

NYT: ?Death panel? rumor has familiar roots - The New York Times- msnbc.com

It remains very disturbing to me that such significant political conservatives, despite knowing that death panels are not in this bill, and despite knowing that health care reform is vital in the nation's best interests, would continue to promote the false claim just to bring Obama's numbers down.

They should be ashamed of themselves.
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One thing I don't understand about the whole deal. What is the rush? We've made it this far. Doesn't it make more sense to implement smaller reforms until we KNOW the actual number of the involuntarily uninsured?

Shouldn't we look at immigration reform first?

They are asking the american people to fund a program when we are already in debt up to our eyeballs. Taking a year or two to work through this seems to be the most sensible solution.

Their rush seems to contradict their appeal for an honest debate on the issues.

I'm not an insurance lobbyist, nor am I a union member. I would just like for our govt to live by the same rules that I do. Stop spending money they don't have.

It is the only real way out of debt for individuals and for the country.
 
#81
#81
T-TownVol said:
Nope, not buying that one, sorry....thanks for playing.
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Not that I particularly care, but ok.

Honestly, if anybody would know Judiasm is older than Christianity, it would probably be Christians. Since, you know, Christianity owes its foundation to Jewish tradition.
 
#82
#82
Excellent source there LG. I beleive EVERYTHING that the NY Times prints and so should you....oh nevermind, you actually do.

Death Panels are another, very attention grabbing, name for the end of life "counseling" that IS mentioned in the bill.
 
#83
#83
Lexvol said:
One thing I don't understand about the whole deal. What is the rush? We've made it this far. Doesn't it make more sense to implement smaller reforms until we KNOW the actual number of the involuntarily uninsured?

Shouldn't we look at immigration reform first?

They are asking the american people to fund a program when we are already in debt up to our eyeballs. Taking a year or two to work through this seems to be the most sensible solution.

Their rush seems to contradict their appeal for an honest debate on the issues.

I'm not an insurance lobbyist, nor am I a union member. I would just like for our govt to live by the same rules that I do. Stop spending money they don't have.

It is the only real way out of debt for individuals and for the country.
Click to expand...

I don't understand the rush either, but the whole "death panel" thing is beyond ridiculous.
 
#84
#84
rjd970 said:
Not that I particularly care, but ok.

Honestly, if anybody would know Judiasm is older than Christianity, it would probably be Christians. Since, you know, Christianity owes its foundation to Jewish tradition.
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Breaking News!!!!!!!!!

JESUS was a JEW!!!!!!!!!
 
#86
#86
rjd970 said:
I don't understand the rush either, but the whole "death panel" thing is beyond ridiculous.
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I do think there is definitely some intellectual dishonesty (from what I have heard anyway) but it isn't that hard to imagine either.
 
#87
#87
Lexvol said:
I do think there is definitely some intellectual dishonesty (from what I have heard anyway) but it isn't that hard to imagine either.
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The death panels are about as useful in the arguement as the "it will not increase the deficite one penny" crap that the Dems are saying.
Each side is using catch phrases that excite the base.
 
#89
#89
Lexvol said:
One thing I don't understand about the whole deal. What is the rush? We've made it this far. Doesn't it make more sense to implement smaller reforms until we KNOW the actual number of the involuntarily uninsured?

Shouldn't we look at immigration reform first?

They are asking the american people to fund a program when we are already in debt up to our eyeballs. Taking a year or two to work through this seems to be the most sensible solution.

Their rush seems to contradict their appeal for an honest debate on the issues.

I'm not an insurance lobbyist, nor am I a union member. I would just like for our govt to live by the same rules that I do. Stop spending money they don't have.

It is the only real way out of debt for individuals and for the country.
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I am not opposed to taking the time necessary to get people better informed about what this plan does -- and does not do -- so that the hysteria dies down a bit and cooler heads prevail.


T-TownVol said:
Excellent source there LG. I beleive EVERYTHING that the NY Times prints and so should you....oh nevermind, you actually do.

Death Panels are another, very attention grabbing, name for the end of life "counseling" that IS mentioned in the bill.
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Yeah, as it is now, the families of persons in hospice don't meet with the physicians to figure out how best to deal with a beloved family member, things like pain management, etc. Yeah, we don't want that to continue to happen, do we?

Please.


T-TownVol said:
The death panels are about as useful in the arguement as the "it will not increase the deficite one penny" crap that the Dems are saying.
Each side is using catch phrases that excite the base.
Click to expand...

The problem is that these catch phrases are driving uninformed and primarily elderly people, who are already mesmerized by the Obama is a Secret Agent Muslim Man theory, and their brethren the birthers, to show up at meetings where these rumors would be dealt with and to overrun them with unjutified lunacy.
 
#90
#90
lawgator1 said:
VERY interesting story about where the "death panel" rumor came from, how it is utterly 100 percent false, and how some on the right are perpetuating, despite knowing that it is false, because they see it as an opportunity to weaken a president they disagree with on a more fundamental level.

NYT: ?Death panel? rumor has familiar roots - The New York Times- msnbc.com

It remains very disturbing to me that such significant political conservatives, despite knowing that death panels are not in this bill, and despite knowing that health care reform is vital in the nation's best interests, would continue to promote the false claim just to bring Obama's numbers down.

They should be ashamed of themselves.
Click to expand...

"Death Panel" is loud and over the top. However, you disagree that there would be people that would have life sustaining treatments withheld from them in certain situations, by government red tape and decision makers?
 
#91
#91
Making decisions about Hospice and other care issues are made now, sure. BUT, with the Doctors of their own choosing.
You have to admit that the Government getting involved, and controlling the money aspect, is enough to scare the shat out of people. Are they to just "shut up and get out of the way" as BHO has stated.

I do not have a dog in this fight. I am self insured. I just beleive that this is democracy at work and the people, like LG, that say that they should not be saying negative things about the plan, are wrong.

The "uninformed" are on both sides of this debate. Acorn is now bussing in people to stand outside these meeting and shout the company lines. They are just as uninformed.
 
#92
#92
allvol123 said:
"Death Panel" is loud and over the top. However, you disagree that there would be people that would have life sustaining treatments withheld from them in certain situations, by government red tape and decision makers?
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There is no way that any doctor is going to withhold life-sustaining treatment from anyone because of government red tape. If that were an issue, it would already be an issue now.

There is nothing in this bill that alters the ordinary course of the practice of medicine at the end of a person's life. In fact, the very things the loons point to as representing "death panels" have already been passed in other contexts and are just part of the normal practice of medicine, already.

This bill does nothing to hasten the death of anyone.

Period. End of sentence.
 
#94
#94
I don't have a problem saying negative things about the plan...there is plenty to say. But flat out false statements...by both sides...is irritating.
 
#95
#95
T-TownVol said:
Making decisions about Hospice and other care issues are made now, sure. BUT, with the Doctors of their own choosing.
You have to admit that the Government getting involved, and controlling the money aspect, is enough to scare the shat out of people. Are they to just "shut up and get out of the way" as BHO has stated.

I do not have a dog in this fight. I am self insured. I just beleive that this is democracy at work and the people, like LG, that say that they should not be saying negative things about the plan, are wrong.

The "uninformed" are on both sides of this debate. Acorn is now bussing in people to stand outside these meeting and shout the company lines. They are just as uninformed.
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Noooo, that's not what I'm saying. I am not saying no one can criticize it. There are many things to criticize, i.e. that it represents an expansion of government beuracracy, that it will be expensive, etc.

All valid criticisms that should be considered.

What I am saying is that it's a real shame that so many people have been duped into thinking that this is some sort of draconian Logan's Run plan when that is just not true.
 
#96
#96
And by the way, Obama's frustration with the false claims and misrepresentations should not have led him to say sit down and shut up, or words to that effect. That was not a very presidential moment, was a function of his arrogance and his underestimation of the naivete of so many people at buying into the rumors.
 
#97
#97
lawgator1 said:
There is no way that any doctor is going to withhold life-sustaining treatment from anyone because of government red tape. If that were an issue, it would already be an issue now.

There is nothing in this bill that alters the ordinary course of the practice of medicine at the end of a person's life. In fact, the very things the loons point to as representing "death panels" have already been passed in other contexts and are just part of the normal practice of medicine, already.

This bill does nothing to hasten the death of anyone.

Period. End of sentence.
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The blind faith of this statement is amazing.
 
#98
#98
lawgator1 said:
There is no way that any doctor is going to withhold life-sustaining treatment from anyone because of government red tape. If that were an issue, it would already be an issue now.

There is nothing in this bill that alters the ordinary course of the practice of medicine at the end of a person's life. In fact, the very things the loons point to as representing "death panels" have already been passed in other contexts and are just part of the normal practice of medicine, already.

This bill does nothing to hasten the death of anyone.

Period. End of sentence.
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Nonsense. The man is in favor of complete government run healthcare, that creates a gatekeeper, and it ain't your local doctor. Every step towards what he wants creates issues with what is wanted and what is available. The long waiting lists for procedures in countries with similar type systems is no myth.

Bold is complete nonsense and simple minded. Yea, we're going to pass hundred or thousands of pages of healthcare legislation and in no way will it result in any unintended consequences.
 
#99
#99
Does medicare withold life sustaining treatment from anyone, or is medicare red tape contributing to deaths? I honestly don't know.
 
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