Why I'm still not panicking (caution: a hint of optimism here!)

[loservol]

How can you say that for sure though? There is no way to know. Again, the incompetence you see is doubtless magnified by the lack of talent on the field. And there's also the argument that the personnel doesn't fit the system. For some reason, people HATE that argument (not sure why), but I feel there has to be some degree of validity to it.

And for the record, a 2nd-tier program would certainly be better than what we are now, would it not? Though I agree, that's not my goal for our program either.

For another example, look at the Saints last year without Sean Payton guiding the ship. A smart and crafty mind could come in and reverse the ship. Our Captain Kirk is out there somewhere. And we will find him sooner when we all man up as one and demand better.

 

[ukvols]

A few of you are missing my point. Talent hides a lot of coaching deficiencies. Bad play-calling can be overcome by great talent. Bad in-game adjustments, bad discipline, bad game preparation... It can ALL be overcome by talent. The squad we have right now doesn't have that type of talent, so the flaws in Jones and his staff are not only visible, but magnified.

When we get his guys in here, all that will go away. It will become hidden. It might still be there, but we won't notice it like we do now. Because we'll be winning. Talent wins, regardless of coaching.

Your OP was a decent post, but this follow-up post isn't going to make anyone optimistic. You're basically saying you think they're terrible now and always will be terrible, but we should hang our hopes on pulling in enough talent to deal with that.

 

[sjt18]

If you don't think Les Miles has done a pretty good job at Lsu than you need to stop watching football because you are totally lost my friend

Miles is an extraordinary recruiter. He's a little bit better than avg coach. LSU almost NEVER loses because the other team has more talent.

That's the whole point. Talent gets you to a certain level. After that, coaching makes the real difference.

 

[metafour]

Hmmm. Interesting points. You make a valid argument. Yet I'd still make the case that Chizik won an NC, which would be a clear instance of talent overcoming incompetent coaching. Take last year's Florida team. I certainly don't think Muschamp is or was a good coach; but he had fantastic talent that won despite his poor preparation and lack of discipline. I was very young during our best Fulmer years, but my dad always said it was the same way with Fulmer. Can't personally vouch for that though.

Gene Chizik won a NC because he stumbled onto hiring an elite offensive mind who just happened to find an unstoppable offensive weapon that he was able to exploit flawlessly. The rest of that Auburn team was filled out by Seniors from Tuberville's days....guys that were well versed in the fundamentals of football.

After those guys left all of Chizik's 4 and 5 star "elite recruits" that he actually "developed" himself looked horribly undisciplined, horribly versed in fundamentals, and horribly unprepared to play the game. We saw it all...games in which it legitimately looked like we didn't do a thing all week in practice. Games in which we came out of Bye week's and got blown out of the water.

Your HC needs to develop a winning environment based off of discipline and hard-work. That needs to be your "Base" for any success. Alabama wins because they run an NFL ship...its dog eat dog, there is no "fun". Just lining up a bunch of recruiting classes isn't going to do a thing.

 

[sjt18]

How can you say that for sure though? There is no way to know. Again, the incompetence you see is doubtless magnified by the lack of talent on the field.

Or else poor coaching has magnified the lack of talent.... The latter is far more often the case in college football than the former. Great coaches very often make even weak rosters better than they would have been otherwise.

And there's also the argument that the personnel doesn't fit the system. For some reason, people HATE that argument (not sure why), but I feel there has to be some degree of validity to it.

Interesting if true since most of the players committed right now are out of the same mold as the current players.

And for the record, a 2nd-tier program would certainly be better than what we are now, would it not? Though I agree, that's not my goal for our program either.

Not if that's the end goal. I find little satisfaction at all in being an also ran... which is why I DESPISE with a bloody passion the "play not to lose" strategy Jones tried tonight. I cannot express the disappointment I have in him for that.

 

[utfan72408]

LSU has more talent than UT is ever likely to have on a regular basis. And they choke because of Miles.

Bama wins championships because along with elite talent... they have elite coaching.

Ahh, but 95% of college football programs would love to have the pedigree and current standing that LSU has. Thank you for bringing that up; Les Miles perfectly illustrates my argument. I agree with everything you said, actually. LSU doesn't win titles like Bama because of Miles's occasional idiocy (thought they do have 1 NC). But the talent still overcomes Miles to the tune of 10 wins a year... And who wouldn't take 10 wins a year? Most programs envy LSU, and precious few can look down and them. Because Miles's talent overcomes his incompetence.

 

[TNnative]

Every announcer and commentator is saying Butch Jones will get this program back. I hoped he could wave a magic wand and transform the team overnight. It just ain't happening yet. God, I hate losing to Vanderbilt, last years game was like an open wound, and tonight's game just makes it fester.

I am not losing hope yet, despite the fact that I feel the way many of the other folks on here feel right now. I just hope these guys we have listed as commits right now are the real deal. And they realize that no matter what, losing to those hacks in Nashville is UN FREAKING ACCEPTABLE!!!!!

 

[daj2576]

You'd have a point if there were any indications that the team had improved and not regressed or that this coaching staff was up to competing with even the 3rd tier coaches in the SEC like Franklin and Muschamp.

I like Jones. But HIS gameplan tonight was not worthy of being called the head coach of the University of Tennessee Volunteers. He played scared, not to lose football against VANDY. That... is nothing short of pathetic.

Franklin, like it or not, has over - performed by something like 7 games the past two years. Muschamp has under - performed by 6 games the past two years. If you think those two coaches are of the same tier, you aren't qualified to make any statements that you made in the second paragraph.

That being said, I believe many of Franklin's wins are semi - questionable due to circumstances befalling the other team (as in, not necessarily created by Franklin's coaching). But it is undeniable, he is capitalizing off of those situations.

What happened tonight, though, isn't questionable. Vandy played a more talented Tennessee team, who has been wildly under-performing for three years, and beat them heads up.

Taking that into consideration, I take issue with your over generalized statements regarding our coaching. UT'S defense, who you've been bashing for weeks, held Vandy to what, half of their seasonal point averages? How many turn overs did the D force almost against a usually stingy Vandy O?

The problem tonight was with offensive production. Was it play calling? Execution? Injuries (we are on our 3rd string QB, and our best WR went out after half time)? Motivation? Game plan?

The answer is all of the above, and more, coupled with installing a scheme with a mix-matched roster not fully designed to execute Jones' style. Insert into that a situation where our most consistent and improved player (Palardy) has a terrible night
and you end up with a disappointing night and a season that feels like a monster let-down.

I am shocked that with two weeks to prepare that we couldn't beat Vandy. I'm disappointed too.

Do I think Jones can and will adjust in the off season? Yup. See his first year at Cincy for some uncanny parallels.

 

[Doyle Hargraves]

As expected, this forum has absolutely melted down tonight. The disapproval of Butch Jones (at least here) is at an all-time high... IMO even higher than after the Florida game. And for the first time, even I, who wanted Butch Jones even during Gruden-mania before he became a candidate, must admit that it is somewhat warranted. I thought he (and his staff) coached an atrocious game tonight. That's not the point of this post, though.

The point is this: Vandy will beat us maybe one more time. Maybe. Then their run is over. Our top-level recruiting class(es) will take over, and no matter how incompetent you might think Butch Jones and this staff is, we'll be talented enough to blow Vandy off the field just like old times and to at least be in every game. I guess what I'm saying is this: talent wins ballgames, and we have talent coming. A lot of it. So even if Butch is the worst game coach ever (he's not), if he keeps bringing in great classes, we're going to win games. It's that simple. Lots of great coaches (Bowden and Fulmer come to mind; there are others) won predominantly on talent as opposed to brilliant coaching.

Not making excuses here. Again, tonight was horrendous in every aspect. But still... Just give it time, and wait for the talent to improve (it will) before we start crucifying Coach Jones.

If I am a top recruit, I sure would want to come and play for the staff responsible to tonight's crapfest.

 

[loservol]

Every announcer and commentator is saying Butch Jones will get this program back. I hoped he could wave a magic wand and transform the team overnight. It just ain't happening yet. God, I hate losing to Vanderbilt, last years game was like an open wound, and tonight's game just makes it fester.

When you have guys like Matt Millen who left the Lions organization in disgrace making these kind of comments, you just can't put to much stock into it. Just remember some of these same commentators where in buy mode on Dooley stock.

Trust your own eyes and judgement.

 

[utfan72408]

Your OP was a decent post, but this follow-up post isn't going to make anyone optimistic. You're basically saying you think they're terrible now and always will be terrible, but we should hang our hopes on pulling in enough talent to deal with that.

Not really. I'm saying that there are flaws there, and that they'll be overcome once the talent gets here. By no means do I think he (or the staff) is terrible. Some do, though. This is for them. Because even IF you think he is terrible, the talent WILL overcome that. So if you happen to feel that way about Butch, all hope is not lost. I certainly do not feel that way, however.

 

[loservol]

Do I think Jones can and will adjust in the off season? Yup. See his first year at Cincy for some uncanny parallels.

The best measure of a coach's worth is, does he have average players playing above their heads and abilities. I have never seen this out of Butch. He had his chance at Cincy when he was coaching against the Vols, but instead he was clobbered and humiliated.

 

[sjt18]

Ahh, but 95% of college football programs would love to have the pedigree and current standing that LSU has. Thank you for bringing that up; Les Miles perfectly illustrates my argument. I agree with everything you said, actually. LSU doesn't win titles like Bama because of Miles's occasional idiocy (thought they do have 1 NC). But the talent still overcomes Miles to the tune of 10 wins a year... And who wouldn't take 10 wins a year? Most programs envy LSU, and precious few can look down and them. Because Miles's talent overcomes his incompetence.

The part you are missing is that it is very unlikely that UT gets to where LSU is on talent alone. UT because of its recruiting disadvantages will only win big in this era of championships with an elite coach.

LSU has a GREAT home recruiting base, is right next door to talent rich east Texas, and isn't too far from FL.

So you aren't talking apples and oranges with the Miles comparison.

 

[daj2576]

LSU has more talent than UT is ever likely to have on a regular basis. And they choke because of Miles.

Bama wins championships because along with elite talent... they have elite coaching.

And Saban's first year at Bama, how much better did he do than his predecessor? Didn't Shula go 6-6 the regular season prior? Isn't that the same regular season record Saban had? If Saban is elite, and all that matters is coaching, why did his first year look similar to the year before and include a loss to La-Monroe? Why are you allowing an elite coach a year to install his system, but also believe that Jones should do it faster...With less talent than Saban inherited?

 

[daj2576]

The best measure of a coach's worth is, does he have average players playing above their heads and abilities. I have never seen this out of Butch. He had his chance at Cincy when he was coaching against the Vols, but instead he was clobbered and humiliated.

He was "clobbered and humiliated" by a team with average recruiting in the top 15, with a team who averaged about 58th, in a hostile environment.

The measure of a coach should be more than what you described. It should be can he coach up players, and improve his roster simultaneously. Petri no at Arkansas could coach up players, but failed to realize the importance of upgrading talent which is why he struggled against the top tier teams, even though he well out performed his talent.

 

[Domestic Silence]

Can we please give Butch at least 1 season, with his recruits, before we bash him? Yes, the staff made some mistakes this season. My God, chill. I'm sure there is a bit of adjustment for them too, it is the SEC.

People, just relax. We've been making horrible decisions for 8 years now, going to take some time. He's recruiting well, and I truly believe this incoming class has a winning mentality and is a fresh start. You complaining isn't doing a damn thing positive to help out.

 

[loservol]

And Saban's first year at Bama, how much better did he do than his predecessor? Didn't Shula go 6-6 the regular season prior? Isn't that the same regular season record Saban had? If Saban is elite, and all that matters is coaching, why did his first year look similar to the year before and include a loss to La-Monroe? Why are you allowing an elite coach a year to install his system, but also believe that Jones should do it faster...With less talent than Saban inherited?

Saban previously won a championship which buys a guy extra life. His first year at Alabama he made sure he upset the Vols and get to 6 wins and a bowl game to insure the fans better days where ahead.

Now what has Butch Jones done to deserve a second chance at a once mighty and proud program?

 

[djohnnyg]

Ok.

So UT lost becuz of a lack of talent. YET..they WERE talented enough to beat the 11th ranked team in the country and come within a yard of beating the same team who barely lost to a National Championship contender.

So CBJ is just helpless despite all his great coaching ability to even make a game out of matchups with other top programs becuz he's held back by this clueless, talentless team? Can beat 11th ranked USC but not Vandy?....AT HOME with TWO FREAKING WEEKS TO PREPARE FOR THEM?

So which is it?

Is USC game a "signature win" that some have been boasting about? Or is it a fluke since he obviously doesn't have the talent to come within 3 touchdown's of an Auburn, Mizzou or Alabama?

Ok. Scratch the "signature win" then. It was a fluke and he doesn't deserve credit for it.

 

[loservol]

He was "clobbered and humiliated" by a team with average recruiting in the top 15, with a team who averaged about 58th, in a hostile environment.

Didn't stop other lesser teams like Troy from being able to keep it close against Dooley. None would thought it possible, but the administration might have hired a dumber coach.

 

[sjt18]

If you think those two coaches are of the same tier, you aren't qualified to make any statements that you made in the second paragraph.

I am every bit as qualified as you are to say I'm not.

That being said, I believe many of Franklin's wins are semi - questionable due to circumstances befalling the other team (as in, not necessarily created by Franklin's coaching). But it is undeniable, he is capitalizing off of those situations.

Tonight that "circumstance" was an incompetent gameplan.

Taking that into consideration, I take issue with your over generalized statements regarding our coaching. UT'S defense, who you've been bashing for weeks, held Vandy to what, half of their seasonal point averages? How many turn overs did the D force almost against a usually stingy Vandy O?

Inexplicably Franklin played as conservative as Jones until the last drive... when he pretty much did what he wanted.

You "take issue" with generalizations... when all you talk about is statistical modeling that generalizes?

The D played better than it had... against VANDY! Color me unimpressed that when they had a significant talent advantage they didn't get run over again.

The problem tonight was with offensive production. Was it play calling? Execution? Injuries (we are on our 3rd string QB, and our best WR went out after half time)? Motivation? Game plan?

It was gameplanning mostly. Low risk... play not to lose. Nothing is ever as simple as one factor... but this was pretty close.

Do I think Jones can and will adjust in the off season? Yup. See his first year at Cincy for some uncanny parallels.

I haven't looked that deeply. You mean he went from a team of talented but underachieving Srs who according to him "completely bought in" to what they were doing to a team dependent on underclassmen to compete in the toughest conference in college football?

 

[daj2576]

Saban previously won a championship which buys a guy extra life. His first year at Alabama he made sure he upset the Vols and get to 6 wins and a bowl game to insure the fans better days where ahead.

I bet Bama fans felt assured after a loss to a highly inferior La-Monroe team. Again, Saban ended with the same regular season record as Shula yet you give him a pass because that somehow assured fans of brighter days?

You are using what you know about Bama now to ignore that his first year was of little change than the previous year. You also justify it because he had won a championship at LSU. Frankly winning one championship doesn't prove he is capable of ever repeating that. See: Fulmer, Chizik, Trussel, Brown, Spurrier, Stoops.

By your logic, we should hire Chizik. How many years does that ring buy him before you realize that your logic is faulty?

 

[daj2576]

I am every bit as qualified as you are to say I'm not.

Tonight that "circumstance" was an incompetent gameplan.

Inexplicably Franklin played as conservative as Jones until the last drive... when he pretty much did what he wanted.

You "take issue" with generalizations... when all you talk about is statistical modeling that generalizes?

The D played better than it had... against VANDY! Color me unimpressed that when they had a significant talent advantage they didn't get run over again.

It was gameplanning mostly. Low risk... play not to lose. Nothing is ever as simple as one factor... but this was pretty close.



I haven't looked that deeply. You mean he went from a team of talented but underachieving Srs who according to him "completely bought in" to what they were doing to a team dependent on underclassmen to compete in the toughest conference in college football?

To your first point, if you can't distinguish night from day, you are summarily disqualified to speak on either.

The rest is moot.

 

[djohnnyg]

Maybe CBJ has the uncanny ability to coach out of his mind and motivate the troops for big games since he was able to do it for the USC game.

Wait. How do we explain getting absolutely torched by even bigger games vs Bama, Auburn and Mizzou?

I have to rethink this now.

A talentless team doesn't beat the 11th ranked team in the country.

So he DOES have the talent then?

Then why are we making excuses for him for losing AT HOME with TWO WEEKS TO PREPARE to friggin Vanderbilt?

 

[sjt18]

And Saban's first year at Bama, how much better did he do than his predecessor? Didn't Shula go 6-6 the regular season prior? Isn't that the same regular season record Saban had? If Saban is elite, and all that matters is coaching, why did his first year look similar to the year before and include a loss to La-Monroe? Why are you allowing an elite coach a year to install his system, but also believe that Jones should do it faster...With less talent than Saban inherited?

He did better... with a team that notably and publicly DID NOT buy in.

 

[daj2576]

He did better... with a team that notably and publicly DID NOT buy in.

So how much better was Saban's first regular season record than Shula's last? You keep making comparisons but ignore what you are comparing it to.