Why not Tulsi Gabbard

[hog88]

There's ample evidence that almost every child is liberal - fortunately at least some evolve with age and exposure to the world - the rest become hopeless dems. I'd bet that once you had to make your way in the world, you became less liberal and more conservative. One of our huge national blunders was decreasing the voting age; that one thing allowed the dems to harvest a liberal vote when many of the same people with a few more years of experience and exposure to the facts of life would very likely have voted differently. I think in Tulsi you are seeing someone who was strongly indoctrinated to the Pacific islander way of life as a child has to process how the broader world works - shifting from a protected idealism to the hard facts of life. That would be a shift from a cocoon where the community is essentially extended family to our completely fractured society.

I lost my liberal thinking around 14 or 15. Dad woke me up for morning milking one cooooold Saturday, so cold we had to thaw out the parlor before we could milk. I asked WTF couldn't he get my younger brother up instead of me and he said "you already know what you're doing and I don't have time to teach him". Learned early dumb and lazy gets rewarded.

 

[hog88]

I've actually mellowed a lot on several positions.

It's a good point though, the age of the candidate should be considered as their views evolve.

Same here, I've really mellowed on abortion, same sex marriage and drugs as I have gotten older.

 

[n_huffhines]

Makes more sense to me that she just didn’t have a path to continued relevance with democrats because she pulled that amazing prison yard shanking of Kamala and then the powers that be stuck with Kamala. If she had been named secretary of education or ambassador to the UN or something she would still be a Democrat, IMO.

I totally believe she's changed her mind about stuff for the right reasons.

However, she endorsed Bernie and now she's with Trump. She thought she was going to be Biden's VP. The party didn't like her. She's made a new career for herself. It certainly looks like she's an opportunist.

I think principled people tend to go away*, or go 3rd party, when their party turns on them.

*For example, Amash, Flake, Synema

 

[McDad]

Same here, I've really mellowed on abortion, same sex marriage and drugs as I have gotten older.

Same/similar issues for me, too.

 

[hog88]

She endorsed Bernie and now she's with Trump. She thought she was going to be Biden's VP. The party didn't like her. She's made a new career for herself. It certainly looks like she's an opportunist.

I think principled people tend to go away*, or go 3rd party, when their party turns on them.

*For example, Amash, Flake, Synema

I agree.

 

[AM64]

I don’t think it’s time based hell it could happen over night. I think it’s content based what are the specific points that made her challenge her own prior stances and how did her line of reasoning come to a different conclusion.

Hey, you had an abrupt change in beliefs recently yourself - that routers should have guardrails. Sometimes all it takes is a little exposure to a topic to see the fault in existing beliefs; and, to me, that's a good thing. It's certainly far better than blindly following a party line. I can go all day long with the thought that evolution of thought is far better than the revolutionary thought process the dems use - God only knows what in the hell motivates what passes as a GOP (or anti dem) these days because that's a pretty bewildering process itself.

 

[McDad]

I totally believe she's changed her mind about stuff for the right reasons.

However, she endorsed Bernie and now she's with Trump. She thought she was going to be Biden's VP. The party didn't like her. She's made a new career for herself. It certainly looks like she's an opportunist.

I think principled people tend to go away*, or go 3rd party, when their party turns on them.

*For example, Amash, Flake, Synema

Did you intend to say "for the right reasons" in your first sentence?

If so, I'm not sure I follow.

 

[n_huffhines]

Did you intend to say "for the right reasons" in your first sentence?

If so, I'm not sure I follow.

Yeah. I meant to say it. Meaning, I think she genuinely has had a change of heart on stuff, like her position on gay marriage (which ironically would have nothing to do with her shift right). I think she was genuinely turned off by the left's side of the culture war and that has something to do with her departure. But I just can't fathom being a Bernie supporter and a few short years later going Trump, unless there is something weird with your brain or you're seizing opportunity*.

*Edit: I should add, I think a young person with under-developed ideas and opinions may make a big switch like that, but she's my age and she's been in the game for 2 decades.

 

[AM64]

Oh younger me was definitely further left than old ass curmudgeon me. However younger me was still right of center, or where center was as the time.

I definitely was center or right of center, too; but I was also a military brat and exposed to a broad range of differing views. Still I remember a lot of "why can't we just do ..."; then as I got older and started paying taxes and seeing how faulty government programs were, it all became very very clear.

To see one who has participated in politics gain a different broader perspective as opposed to a momentary redirection dictated by political party overlords is refreshing.

 

[McDad]

Yeah. I meant to say it. Meaning, I think she genuinely has had a change of heart on stuff, like her position on gay marriage (which ironically would have nothing to do with her shift right). I think she was genuinely turned off by the left's side of the culture war and that has something to do with her departure. But I just can't fathom being a Bernie supporter and a few short years later going Trump, unless there is something weird with your brain or you're seizing opportunity.

Oh. I understand now. Thanks.

The bigger discussion that Tulsi represents is fascinating to me.

We don't believe a true change gas occurred without qualifiers. We also believe some changes but not others. That's not a dig at anybody. Just a highlight of how difficult voters are to satisfy.

 

[RockyTop85]

I don't know and I no longer care.

Professional football teams shouldn’t trade good quarterbacks very often.

What do I mean by “very often?”

Once every six months? Once every six years? Those answers don’t make sense when talking about even the relatively small number of 32 different franchises, collectively. They’re arbitrary time limits that have no relation to the situation being discussed.

Saying it shouldn’t happen very often is based on the circumstances that justify trading a good QB being rare. So expressing the conditions does answer the question of frequency particularly when the justifiable predicate is rare (realization of large electoral shifts) and the unjustifiable or less justifiable condition (just trying to stay relevant) is far more common.

I totally believe she's changed her mind about stuff for the right reasons.

Why?

 

[McDad]

Same here, I've really mellowed on abortion, same sex marriage and drugs as I have gotten older.

Hey posting in this thread cuz I realized it was in the wrong thread with our other conversation. But you mentioned your views on patriotism have changed. I wanted to know if you think patriotism has changed since you were in the military? Or did you realize patriotism was really just a myth? Or has what you think of as patriotism changed. If you could talk about your Evolution with that please

 

[hndog609]

I don’t think it’s time based hell it could happen over night. I think it’s content based what are the specific points that made her challenge her own prior stances and how did her line of reasoning come to a different conclusion.

Things can happen very quickly. The old saying "A conservative is just a liberal who has been mugged." comes to mind. Another more literal example is LOTS of people had their reality ruffled by what came about with the COVID response.

 

[hog88]

Hey posting in this thread cuz I realized it was in the wrong thread with our other conversation. But you mentioned your views on patriotism have changed. I wanted to know if you think patriotism has changed since you were in the military? Or did you realize patriotism was really just a myth? Or has what you think of as patriotism changed. If you could talk about your Evolution with that please

Like a lot of young guys I was all USA, USA, mom flag and apple pie. America is the good guys and we did no wrong, US soldiers fought for freedom and the oppressed.

I found out that was complete bullcrap, we were sent to fight because someone's money or power was threatened. We fought because of our buddies. In questioning some of the BS both while in and out of the Army there were times when I was asked "aren't you a patriot" or some derivative of that. I slowly came to the conclusion that if questioning our federal government, the people running it and the crap they were doing is unpatriotic call my happy ass unpatriotic. I now consider being skeptical to the point of disloyalty to the federal government as being truly patriotic.

Lots more to it but I hate typing.

.

 

[RockyTop85]

Yeah. I meant to say it. Meaning, I think she genuinely has had a change of heart on stuff, like her position on gay marriage (which ironically would have nothing to do with her shift right). I think she was genuinely turned off by the left's side of the culture war and that has something to do with her departure. But I just can't fathom being a Bernie supporter and a few short years later going Trump, unless there is something weird with your brain or you're seizing opportunity*.

*Edit: I should add, I think a young person with under-developed ideas and opinions may make a big switch like that, but she's my age and she's been in the game for 2 decades.

Saw this.

Her change on gay marriage is one of the things that makes me question her sincerity the most. IMO somebody who really came to believe they had been wrong to want to ban gay marriage and genuinely changed their views would not then jump right back into culture war signaling, like she did when she started her pivot.

I guess she’s one up on Kamala Harris in that she still has the anti-interventionist plank that is one thing she hasn’t waffled on, but it’s a similar version of focus grouping your platform.

 

[KB5252]

Yeah. I meant to say it. Meaning, I think she genuinely has had a change of heart on stuff, like her position on gay marriage (which ironically would have nothing to do with her shift right). I think she was genuinely turned off by the left's side of the culture war and that has something to do with her departure. But I just can't fathom being a Bernie supporter and a few short years later going Trump, unless there is something weird with your brain or you're seizing opportunity*.

*Edit: I should add, I think a young person with under-developed ideas and opinions may make a big switch like that, but she's my age and she's been in the game for 2 decades.

I think you are probably mostly right. But I would allow one possible carve out here. Is it possible she just sees the establishment as rotten to the core? That hitching her wagon to the anti establishment (politically) candidate in Trump favorable over other options?

I'm not sure I believe that but I do think the two party system is rotten to its core. Maybe I'm just projecting.

For the record I find Trump the lesser of two evils in some respects, the worst of the two evils in others.

I don't see us (the people) winning either way.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Things can happen very quickly. The old saying "A conservative is just a liberal who has been mugged." comes to mind. Another more literal example is LOTS of people had their reality ruffled by what came about with the COVID response.

Honestly it screams of reading the political tea leaves and being at the front of the line to kiss the ring. Vegas has Trump at 61% winning and the margin grows daily.

 

[McDad]

I think you are probably mostly right. But I would allow one possible carve out here. Is it possible she just sees the establishment as rotten to the core? That hitching her wagon to the anti establishment (politically) candidate in Trump favorable over other options?

I'm not sure I believe that but I do think the two party system is rotten to its core. Maybe I'm just projecting.

For the record I find Trump the lesser of two evils in some respects, the worst of the two evils in others.

I didn't see us (the people) winning either way.

That's a stretch but I can see it. Bernie to Trump...basically any 'antiestablishment' candidate.

 

[KB5252]

That's a stretch but I can see it. Bernie to Trump...basically any 'antiestablishment' candidate.

That is true, Bernie wasnt establishment either. And that is a vast gap politically.

 

[hog88]

That is true, Bernie wasnt establishment either. And that is a vast gap politically.

Bernie is all about establishment. Has he ever bucked the establishment with an actual vote?

 

[n_huffhines]

Why?

First of all, I try to be accepting of a person's explanation of their change of mind if it's a decent explanation.

If you had asked me around 2000 if I were for gay marriage (I don't even remember this question existing at the time), I probably would have said "no." and that's because I'm the same age as her and just like her, my parents' views were still my views. She did change her opinion on gay marriage, and you could say that was because of politics, but she maintained that she didn't agree with gay lifestyle, which maybe I'm a rube, but you wouldn't say that if you're trying to appease Democrats. You would just keep that part to yourself. I believe this is/can be consistent with her position on the culture war. For example, someone's position on gay marriage has nothing to do with whether or not they think biological males should play sports with females or forbidding discussions on sexual orientation with 3rd graders.

FTR, I do not like her. But that's mostly because I felt like she sold herself as the anti-war politician, and turned out she's just anti-regime change (which is good, but I can't get over the disappointment).

 

[Orangeburst]

for being so irrelevent, she sure is getting the air play.

 

[AM64]

Honestly it screams of reading the political tea leaves and being at the front of the line to kiss the ring. Vegas has Trump at 61% winning and the margin grows daily.

I'm amazed at the win possibility for Trump. I think he's going to lose ... again. The thing is (at least to me) Trump's chances hang on the fact that he's not a damn dem and he's not really a republican either - and mostly he's not a politician who has been in office forever. If he would simply close his fat mouth, he'd look better. Trump is the poster child for "better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

Trump did better in office because some of his nonsense was stifled by the political process. On the other hand, the political process also stopped some of his more solid concepts like actually doing something about wide open borders. What we really need is someone to champion and push through some things like fixing citizenship by birth location - citizenship should be determined by who the parents are and their citizenship rather than simply where a baby was dropped. Fix that, and you put a huge dent in the reason for illegal migration.

 

[BreatheUT]

Ideally, representative politicians wouldn’t change their positions very often. Like choosing a doctor, pastor, or private school, a district would elect somebody whose judgment and principles are respected and trust them. Changes in the district’s beliefs would be reflected by selection of new representation.

Obviously, that’s not reality. Politics has become an occupation and business is booming. But the further one gets from that ideal, the more I tend to look down on it.

I’ve posted my thoughts about Gabbard before. I guess it wasn’t in this thread. But to me, her entire life story screams that she’s Lin-Manuel Miranda’s characterization of Aaron Burr, brought to life. Basically the antithesis of the ideal. She doesn’t really believe anything, she just wants to be in the room where it happens.

That doesn’t really distinguish her from the average modern politician, but it does run contrary to some of the popular narratives that tend to build up around her.

Gabbard has been mostly consistent about her love for country. It's her understanding of the constitution they may have evolved.

 

[NorthDallas40]

I'm amazed at the win possibility for Trump.

Look who he’s ran against this time. A brain dead octogenarian and the most liberal senator on record and most unpopular candidate from the last presidential election.

It’s like the two party system takes the dogshit candidates from the previous cycle as a challenge to go lower