Will the real Trayvon Martin please stand up?

[volved]

Why would a stocky, 250 pound man aspiring to be a police officer need to FATALLY shoot an unarmed attacker? Do you really think Martin intended to kill Zimm with his fists? Really?

Zimmerman's story is that Martin hit him while he was reaching for his phone, breaking his nose and knocking him down, and that Martin then jumped on him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk. As Zimmerman struggled to get his head off the sidewalk, his concealed and holstered gun was exposed. Martin went for the gun and Martin was shot in the struggle for the gun. If this story is true it answers your question.

Physical evidence, broken nose and gash in the back of the head, supports this story.
Eyewitness accounts of Martin being on top of Zimmerman support this story.
Audio evidence of Zimmerman shrieking before the gunshot like someone who is terrified about being killed supports this story.

 

[gsvol]

Nobody really knows what happen but two people and one of them is dead. I'm afraid no one will really know the truth, and they will have to let this man go as a result. It's a tragedy the boy had to die.

I agree it is a tragedy but I think it's a mistake to exonerate Trayvon.

I looked at a detailed timeline map that someone made that included the time of all calls and what was reportedly said for both Zimmermann and Martin.

According to my understanding of events it appears that Travon had every chance in the world to just run around the corner and enter his dad's girlfriend's house.

I don't know exactly what happened so I've avoided the rush to judgement of the lemming crowd.

I actually believe that even if Trayvon had encountered Zimmerman on the street, acted civililly instead of playing Billy Bad Ass and jumping him, then he would be alive today.

You can condemn Zimmerman for playing cop but still, what did he do that was illegal?

 

[DinkinFlicka]

Dude, you've been dancing around the notion that Trayvon deserved it throughout the entire thread.

 

[Weezer]

Zimmerman's story is that Martin hit him while he was reaching for his phone, breaking his nose and knocking him down, and that Martin then jumped on him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk. As Zimmerman struggled to get his head off the sidewalk, his concealed and holstered gun was exposed. Martin went for the gun and Martin was shot in the struggle for the gun. If this story is true it answers your question.

Physical evidence, broken nose and gash in the back of the head, supports this story.
Eyewitness accounts of Martin being on top of Zimmerman support this story.
Audio evidence of Zimmerman shrieking before the gunshot like someone who is terrified about being killed supports this story.

Reports today that two expert voice analysts working independently of each other have concluded the screaming voice heard on the 911 calls is not Zimmerman.

He should have stayed in the car. Call the police, report what you see, do not leave your vehicle. Pretty simple IMO.

 

[NEO]

I'm glad people like you are on the other side of this debate.

What side am I on?

I don't have a clue if it was murder or not because I wasnt there and have the same facts as everyone else which is very little.

 

[volved]

Reports today that two expert voice analysts working independently of each other have concluded the screaming voice heard on the 911 calls is not Zimmerman.

He should have stayed in the car. Call the police, report what you see, do not leave your vehicle. Pretty simple IMO.

It will be interesting to see how the audio evidence plays out. The guy who made that 911 call said that Zimmerman was calling out for help before he made the call but it could turn out the later scream was not Zimmerman.

It has probably already been pointed out in this thread but that eyewitness approached the two on the ground and told Martin (on top) to stop and that he was calling 911. He then retreated to his gated patio to make the call. If Martin had listened to him or if the eyewitness had tried to pull Martin off of Zimmerman then there would almost certainly not have been a shooting.

I agree that Zimmerman should have stayed in his car but the question is what crime did he commit by getting out of his car if his story is true?

 

[NEO]

zimmerman might have been getting his arse whooped and screaming for help and then decided to go for his gun which Martin then realized was happening and he began screaming realizing he was about to get shot.

 

[Weezer]

It will be interesting to see how the audio evidence plays out. The guy who made that 911 call said that Zimmerman was calling out for help before he made the call but it could turn out the later scream was not Zimmerman.

It has probably already been pointed out in this thread but that eyewitness approached the two on the ground and told Martin (on top) to stop and that he was calling 911. He then retreated to his gated patio to make the call. If Martin had listened to him or if the eyewitness had tried to pull Martin off of Zimmerman then there would almost certainly not have been a shooting.

I agree that Zimmerman should have stayed in his car but the question is what crime did he commit by getting out of his car if his story is true?

Getting out of the car to follow TM created the chain of events that led to TM's death. Did he commit a crime by getting out of his car? No, but his actions created the situation that unfolded. His negligence led to TM's death.

 

[gsvol]

Dude, you've been dancing around the notion that Trayvon deserved it throughout the entire thread.

That is just what you think.

I hate it that the kid is dead.

He did seem to be on the wrong path but he was only 17, he had his whole life before him, he may have done great things eventually.

I have an old friend who taught in inner city schools for most of his carreer and he told me of one young guy, and asked me to help him out which I was willing to do.

The young guy was a member of the GDs and had an older brother who was doing life for murder. His mother was addicted to crack and he spent most of his time taking care of her.

The guy and his whole chapter decided to give up dealing drugs and gang banging but hang together, help little old ladies carry their grocieries home etc.

They would still defend their turf from the bloods and crips but they had decided to be more of a group that would contribute positively to their community rather than involve themselves in criminal activity.

I am saying caution should be exercised in any rush to judgement that Zimmerman should be demonized.

I know another guy who was an aspiring (black) playwright who showed me a film of a one man play which he filmed and in which he played the sole acting role.

It was him behind bars and was about the time he had spend in prison (six years) and was deeply philosophical and thouroughly thought provoking.

At the end I asked him about any resentment he may have had about being imprissoned.

He said he had no resentment whatsoever, he was damned glad he had gotten caught and put away for a long enough time to think it over.

He said that was the only reason he was alive that day, he was completely out of control, pulling off robberies, burglaries and living on the edge.

If he hadn't gotten caught, he was sure he would be dead now.

Perhaps you are dancing around the supposition that Zimmerman deserved to be attacked and beaten.

According to FBI stats, 90% of all crime doesn't cross racial lines, in other words it is white on white or black on black or latino on latino.

When it crosses color lines, 90% of all rapes, robberies and murders are black on white.

Thaink about that for a minute.

 

[Weezer]

That is just what you think.

I hate it that the kid is dead.

He did seem to be on the wrong path but he was only 17, he had his whole life before him, he may have done great things eventually.

I have an old friend who taught in inner city schools for most of his carreer and he told me of one young guy, and asked me to help him out which I was willing to do.

The young guy was a member of the GDs and had an older brother who was doing life for murder. His mother was addicted to crack and he spent most of his time taking care of her.

The guy and his whole chapter decided to give up dealing drugs and gang banging but hang together, help little old ladies carry their grocieries home etc.

They would still defend their turf from the bloods and crips but they had decided to be more of a group that would contribute positively to their community rather than involve themselves in criminal activity.

I am saying caution should be exercised in any rush to judgement that Zimmerman should be demonized.

I know another guy who was an aspiring (black) playwright who showed me a film of a one man play which he filmed and in which he played the sole acting role.

It was him behind bars and was about the time he had spend in prison (six years) and was deeply philosophical and thouroughly thought provoking.

At the end I asked him about any resentment he may have had about being imprissoned.

He said he had no resentment whatsoever, he was damned glad he had gotten caught and put away for a long enough time to think it over.

He said that was the only reason he was alive that day, he was completely out of control, pulling off robberies, burglaries and living on the edge.

If he hadn't gotten caught, he was sure he would be dead now.

Perhaps you are dancing around the supposition that Zimmerman deserved to be attacked and beaten.

According to FBI stats, 90% of all crime doesn't cross racial lines, in other words it is white on white or black on black or latino on latino.

When it crosses color lines, 90% of all rapes, robberies and murders are black on white.

Thaink about that for a minute.

Are you dancing around the supposition thay Martin deserved to be followed?

A young man went to the store went to the store and was on his way home. Zimmerman drives up and for whatever reason decides Martin looks suspicious. He calls 911 to report it, exits his car and decides to follow Martin. Despite being told by the dispatcher not to follow, he continues. From all accounts I've read, Martin knew he was being followed. You're young, new to the neighborhood, and a strange man is following you. Would you feel threatened? I would. No account that I've seen has Zimmerman identifying himself. Martin had no idea who he was. For all we know, Martin may have been able to tell Zimmerman was carrying. All of a sudden, Zimmerman breaks off pursuit. Martin has no idea why. He has two choices. He can run like hell and hope Zim doesn't change his mind and come after him, or he could take advantage of the moment and try to gain the upper hand. Fight or flight. He chose fight. If he was afraid for his life, he had just as much right, IMO more right, to act in self defense as Zim did.

I'm sure all the facts still aren't out there, but based on accounts I've read, at the very least, Zim acted in a reckless, negligent way. His actions led directly to Martin's death. I just don't see self-defense holding water when he initiated the confrontation. Guy should have been charged with something by now.

 

[Weezer]

Perhaps what seems common sense to me isn't perceived by others that way. Fact: If Zimmerman stays in his car and does not initiate a foot pursuit, odds highly favor Martin being alive today. What am I missing? The guy was not a cop he was just a neighborhood watchman. He took the law into his own hands when he decided to follow Martin rather than wait for the police. How is he not wrong?

 

[utvolpj]

He has two choices. He can run like hell and hope Zim doesn't change his mind and come after him, or he could take advantage of the moment and try to gain the upper hand. Fight or flight. He chose fight. If he was afraid for his life, he had just as much right, IMO more right, to act in self defense as Zim did.

is it really self-defense if Martin also made the choice to pursue and confront Zimmerman? Not sure how you can say Z was wrong to pursue but Martin was right?

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

is it really self-defense if Martin also made the choice to pursue and confront Zimmerman? Not sure how you can say Z was wrong to pursue but Martin was right?

Exactly this. Too many people tend to think in terms of right and wrong. I.E. if one person was wrong then what the other person did must have been okay. In this situation, there were multiple wrong decisions and actions made (by both individuals) which ultimately culminated in the unfortunate death of Trayvon.

 

[lawgator1]

Reports today that two expert voice analysts working independently of each other have concluded the screaming voice heard on the 911 calls is not Zimmerman.

He should have stayed in the car. Call the police, report what you see, do not leave your vehicle. Pretty simple IMO.

No. That is incorrect. They say they don't think it is Zimmerman. They have not concluded anything.

And they don't have a sample of Martin's, so they can't say whether they even think it is his.

Again, please, let's stick to facts, not rhetoric, exaggeration, and hyperbole.

 

[lawgator1]

Getting out of the car to follow TM created the chain of events that led to TM's death. Did he commit a crime by getting out of his car? No, but his actions created the situation that unfolded. His negligence led to TM's death.

By that logic, Martin's father is to blame because he impregnated Martin's mother, setting in motion the chain of events a bit further back ....

 

[hndog609]

The guy was not a cop he was just a neighborhood watchman. He took the law into his own hands when he decided to follow Martin rather than wait for the police. How is he not wrong?

First let's be clear...I've held from the outset that I'm not a fan of armed people (outside of LEO obviously) putting themselves in situations that could reasonably be deemed confrontational. I've stated this several times. However...

The above assertion simply isn't correct. Nothing in Zimmerman's actions included actual enforcement of law. Following someone you find suspicious in your neighborhood is certainly not illegal and, when in the context of a "neighborhood watch" participant, even explainable. (even if arguably imprudent) If one is not trying to exercise legal authority (use of force, detainment, etc) how can one be described, certainly by any standard that would hold up in court, as taking the law into your own hands?

Also, and though stated often at this point it apparently bears repeating; if Martin attacked Zimmerman (which is the story being asserted, I'm not saying it's true at this point) for "following him" I don't see any possible way for Zimmerman to be legally held at fault. Following is not illegal in public, assault is. There is no way you can justify the latter illegal action predicated on the legal first action. We can call Zimmerman's actions imprudent or even foolish but how are you going to argue Martin was in any way "justified" in attacking Zimmerman based on anything currently presented into evidence?

 

[Behr]

No. That is incorrect. They say they don't think it is Zimmerman. They have not concluded anything.

And they don't have a sample of Martin's, so they can't say whether they even think it is his.

Again, please, let's stick to facts, not rhetoric, exaggeration, and hyperbole.

Is this just another media spin on "the facts"?

I'm just asking, no sarcasm intended.


"The tests concluded that it's not the voice of Mr. Zimmerman," Tom Owen, of Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence, told MSNBC.

Asked if he thought such tests would be admissible in court, Owen said "yes" and noted he had recently used similar testing in testimony at a Connecticut murder case that involved 911 call."

U.S. News - Trayvon Martin case 911 call: Screams not George Zimmerman's, 2 experts say

 

[utvolpj]

and the defense produces experts that say it is Zimmerman. Makes the doubt reasonable IMO

 

[Behr]

I didn't know they had, that's why I asked an honest question. I haven't followed this story close and I'm just trying to catch up.

 

[utvolpj]

I didn't know they had, that's why I asked an honest question. I haven't followed this story close and I'm just trying to catch up.

I don't think they have just saying that if this is what the prosecution is going to court with then the defense will find someone too

 

[lawgator1]

Is this just another media spin on "the facts"?

I'm just asking, no sarcasm intended.


"The tests concluded that it's not the voice of Mr. Zimmerman," Tom Owen, of Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence, told MSNBC.

Asked if he thought such tests would be admissible in court, Owen said "yes" and noted he had recently used similar testing in testimony at a Connecticut murder case that involved 911 call."

U.S. News - Trayvon Martin case 911 call: Screams not George Zimmerman's, 2 experts say

My understanding is that the two experts reached the same conclusion for different reasons. The first one says his study shows 48 % match, and needs to be 60 % to state it is Zimmerman. Now, I don't know how me measures or what his software is. And, I don't know if that means 48/60 he would say it is Zimmerman, i.e. 4/5 it is.

The other fellow I gather is just winging it, a bit.

What is odd to me is the language they used, as though they were trying to make broad sweeping and charged statements. I would not expect that from hard core scientific types on voice analysis.

Of course, in terms of this being free advertising for them, there is some value to that.

On the other hand, if it is Martin yelling for help and not Zimmerman, as the Zimmerman folks claimed, then I'd day that is a pretty significant factor in favor of a prosecution.

 

[T-TownVol]

My understanding is that the two experts reached the same conclusion for different reasons. The first one says his study shows 48 % match, and needs to be 60 % to state it is Zimmerman. Now, I don't know how me measures or what his software is. And, I don't know if that means 48/60 he would say it is Zimmerman, i.e. 4/5 it is.

The other fellow I gather is just winging it, a bit.

What is odd to me is the language they used, as though they were trying to make broad sweeping and charged statements. I would not expect that from hard core scientific types on voice analysis.

Of course, in terms of this being free advertising for them, there is some value to that.

On the other hand, if it is Martin yelling for help and not Zimmerman, as the Zimmerman folks claimed, then I'd day that is a pretty significant factor in favor of a prosecution.

Not to mention that it was raining and the voice that is on the tape is several yards away from the person on the phone making the 911 call. This is easliy refuted in court. (I am not making a judgement, just commenting)

 

[NEO]

No. That is incorrect. They say they don't think it is Zimmerman. They have not concluded anything.

And they don't have a sample of Martin's, so they can't say whether they even think it is his.

Again, please, let's stick to facts, not rhetoric, exaggeration, and hyperbole.

U are NOT Lg.

You may be CodyG's brother or something but this isn't reality.

 

[gsvol]

Are you dancing around the supposition thay Martin deserved to be followed?

A young man went to the store went to the store and was on his way home. Zimmerman drives up and for whatever reason decides Martin looks suspicious. He calls 911 to report it, exits his car and decides to follow Martin. Despite being told by the dispatcher not to follow, he continues. From all accounts I've read, Martin knew he was being followed. You're young, new to the neighborhood, and a strange man is following you. Would you feel threatened? I would. No account that I've seen has Zimmerman identifying himself. Martin had no idea who he was. For all we know, Martin may have been able to tell Zimmerman was carrying. All of a sudden, Zimmerman breaks off pursuit. Martin has no idea why. He has two choices. He can run like hell and hope Zim doesn't change his mind and come after him, or he could take advantage of the moment and try to gain the upper hand. Fight or flight. He chose fight. If he was afraid for his life, he had just as much right, IMO more right, to act in self defense as Zim did.

I'm sure all the facts still aren't out there, but based on accounts I've read, at the very least, Zim acted in a reckless, negligent way. His actions led directly to Martin's death. I just don't see self-defense holding water when he initiated the confrontation. Guy should have been charged with something by now.

Interesting but misleading narative.


Another day, another eyewitness [Reader Post] | Flopping Aces

Facts are stubborn things.

On one hand the media is actively trying George Zimmerman. NBC/MSNBC leads the way by falsifying reports to make George Zimmerman look racist:


In a published report bylined "msnbc.com Staff and NBC News," a quote attributed to Trayvon Martin shooter George Zimmerman, appears to be purposefully distorted by the left to read as though Zimmerman is a racist. A full reading of the transcript of the quoted 911 call suggests nothing of the kind.
-----------------------------------

ABC News doctored the Sanford PD video.

Mary Cutcher and Selma Lamilla saw.....something.

And Cutcher's roommate said something that Zimmerman's lawyer will want to pursue:


Lamilla said that after the shot was fired Zimmerman appeared to be pacing.
“He started walking back and forth like three times with his hand on the head and kind of, he was walking like kind of confused,” she said.

Lamilla said he was touching his head like “he was in shock.”

Hand on his head? Confused? Shock? Like maybe his head has been beaten?

The Thug Report | Urban Crime News Straight From Da Hood

Perhaps what seems common sense to me isn't perceived by others that way. Fact: If Zimmerman stays in his car and does not initiate a foot pursuit, odds highly favor Martin being alive today. What am I missing? The guy was not a cop he was just a neighborhood watchman. He took the law into his own hands when he decided to follow Martin rather than wait for the police. How is he not wrong?

What you seem to be missing is the crime rate in the neighborhood and that one citizen was doing something to try to stem that, in fact if Trayvon Martin had not committed a crime, he would most likely still be alive today.

 

[vols-1]

Mr. Zimmerman did not initiate a foot pursuit. How is a overweight guy going to track down this 6'2" football player in great shape..when the teen had a head start? Trayvon ducked between a couple of houses and took off. And to prove Mr. Zimmerman did not track Trayvon down on foot, Zimmerman stayed on the phone in his car with the 911 dispatcher another minute after he said "he ran". The confrontation happened when Trayvon circled back around and met Mr. Zimmerman after he parked his car and was getting out to wait for the police.