with a tear in his eye

[93TNVol]

I dunno if it's sign of a good coach always, but it is a sign of strong passion for the game. I know one coach who has done it frequently and has little to prove about it.

Are we sure that isn't vodka leaking from spurrier's eyes?

 

[Orange_Crush]

Garbage post right here.

He was exactly right in what he said.

I have absolutely no problem with CBJ or any other coach showing their emotions when they and their players have invested so much and I think it does mean he's all about TN, but that doesn't necessarily make him "the right man for TN"

I like the emotion and the passion, but like every other coach CBJ's tenure at TN will be judged in wins and losses not emotions and to think otherwise is silly. If TN was to go say 10-26 in CBJ's first 3 years but CBJ cried and showed genuine emotion after each of the 26 losses would he still be the right man for TN ? I doubt many would think so.

If you didn't understand my post, I'm sorry for you, but the logic is valid. I'll try again.

Winning does not "make" a good coach. It reveals a good coach. The things that make a good coach can include:

1. Football IQ
2. Preparation
3. Player development
4. In-game abilities
5. Passion and commitment
6. Player connection
7. Recruiting
8. Work ethic
9. etc...

All of these things "make", "create", "produce", "define" a good coach, and generally, wins follow.

Did you get that last part? Wins follow (are the result of) the many-faceted properties that define a good coach.

Saying that "winning makes a good coach" is like saying that pars make a good golfer. No. Pars and birdies reveal a good golfer. Talent, skill, practice, a short game, concentration, etc make a good golfer and generally result in pars and birdies, which indicate a good golfer.

It is completely valid for someone to say:

"Hey, I've seen Player X play before. He's proven to have a good short game, drive well, concentrate, and stay in the moment. I saw him practice 8 hrs a day every day last week. With that dedication, I feel confident he'll be successful on the tour."

It's completely valid to say:

"I've seen all the markings of what makes a good coach in Butch Jones' career. Now, seeing his passion for UT convinces me he's the man for our job!"

It is completely invalid to side-step all of the things that makes a good coach, and short-cut to "Wins make a good coach." It's flawed logic that confuses causes with the effects.

I hope this helped simplify the concept for you.

:hi:

 

[easyvol]

 

[dd4vols]

I think anyone that loves UT wanted/did cry after Saturday's loss. That loss, the LSU loss in 2011, and the NC loss in 2011 were three of the most heartbreaking losses in the last 10 years at UT.

I was trying and trying to remember which National Championship game we lost in 2011.....then it hit me, North Carolina in the bowl game..ha

 

[JOEY'S ALL VOL !!!]

If you didn't understand my post, I'm sorry for you, but the logic is valid. I'll try again.

Winning does not "make" a good coach. It reveals a good coach. The things that make a good coach can include:

1. Football IQ
2. Preparation
3. Player development
4. In-game abilities
5. Passion and commitment
6. Player connection
7. Recruiting
8. Work ethic
9. etc...

All of these things "make", "create", "produce", "define" a good coach, and generally, wins follow.

Did you get that last part? Wins follow (are the result of) the many-faceted properties that define a good coach.

Saying that "winning makes a good coach" is like saying that pars make a good golfer. No. Pars and birdies reveal a good golfer. Talent, skill, practice, a short game, concentration, etc make a good golfer and generally result in pars and birdies, which indicate a good golfer.

It is completely valid for someone to say:

"Hey, I've seen Player X play before. He's proven to have a good short game, drive well, concentrate, and stay in the moment. I saw him practice 8 hrs a day every day last week. With that dedication, I feel confident he'll be successful on the tour."

It's completely valid to say:

"I've seen all the markings of what makes a good coach in Butch Jones' career. Now, seeing his passion for UT convinces me he's the man for our job!"

It is completely invalid to side-step all of the things that makes a good coach, and short-cut to "Wins make a good coach." It's flawed logic that confuses causes with the effects.

I hope this helped simplify the concept for you.

:hi:

Didn't need simplification since it's all unwarranted garbage and irrelevant to begin with.

The original op spoke of CBJ's emotion and his love for TN and made the statement "tell me again CBJ is not the right man for the job," so another poster makes a statement about"crying makes a good coach who knew " and people go off the deep end and take it like it was a personal shot against CBJ, all he said was wins and losses will determine whether or not CBJ or any other coach for that matter would be considered the right man for their job not emotion or love for the University and that was an accurate statement that didn't deserve the unwarranted defense of CBJ or his actions or his ability for that matter. Some of you people should really consider taking the stance that this isn't life or death.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Didn't need simplification since it's all unwarranted garbage and irrelevant to begin with.

The original op spoke of CBJ's emotion and his love for TN and made the statement "tell me again CBJ is not the right man for the job," so another poster makes a statement about"crying makes a good coach who knew " and people go off the deep end and take it like it was a personal shot against CBJ, all he said was wins and losses will determine whether or not CBJ or any other coach for that matter would be considered the right man for their job not emotion or love for the University and that was an accurate statement that didn't deserve the unwarranted defense of CBJ or his actions or his ability for that matter. Some of you people should really consider taking the stance that this isn't life or death.

The responder also said "winning makes a good coach". That was the part I was responding to. Since I put that particular phrase in quotes several times, including my post to you, I would think that you would have picked up on the fact that that's the point I was taking issue with.

Do you want to prove my "garbage post" logically incorrect? Would you like to make the case that winning "makes" a good coach, as opposed to revealing a good coach? Are you presenting the argument that a good coach is created by wins, or would you agree with me that a good coach is good because of the attributes that he possesses, and wins generally follow from that?

If we can agree on this point, we can then discuss whether passion for the game/team/university is an attribute that, combined with what we've seen in his .600+ career winning percentage, makes him a good coach for UT that will most likely be revealed by wins.

 

[JOEY'S ALL VOL !!!]

The responder also said "winning makes a good coach". That was the part I was responding to. Since I put that particular phrase in quotes several times, including my post to you, I would think that you would have picked up on the fact that that's the point I was taking issue with.

Do you want to prove my "garbage post" logically incorrect? Would you like to make the case that winning "makes" a good coach, as opposed to revealing a good coach? Are you presenting the argument that a good coach is created by wins, or would you agree with me that a good coach is good because of the attributes that he possesses, and wins generally follow from that?

If we can agree on this point, we can then discuss whether passion for the game/team/university is an attribute that, combined with what we've seen in his .600+ career winning percentage, makes him a good coach for UT that will most likely be revealed by wins.

Responder should have said "winning is what determines whether you are considered a coach", but that's what I took him to mean from the start which makes all the rest of this just coffee house crap.

Of course passion can be an attribute never implied otherwise, I personally like seeing the passion, but I've seen plenty of passionate coaches not get it done in the win-loss column and that is what ultimately decides a coach's fate. That appeared to me to be the responder's whole point to begin with, not CBJ bashing which to me makes the whole piling on and defending of CBJ and\or his abilities unwarranted and irrelevant...:hi:

 

[onevolfan]

Sorry if posted, but anyone else see Butch wiping away tears after the game? Tell me again how he's not the right guy for Tennessee! I firmly believe he is more than just about the win, I believe he loves Tennessee.

Not only does he love Tennessee, but he also loves his players, and he says that often. He really is a "players coach", and is the reason why they trust him, and are buying in to what he is teaching them. They know he has their back. I was actually glad to see him get that penalty called on him Saturday. It did cost us, but it also got the team fired up a little more too.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

Responder should have said "winning is what determines whether you are considered a coach", but that's what I took him to mean from the start which makes all the rest of this just coffee house crap.

Of course passion can be an attribute never implied otherwise, I personally like seeing the passion, but I've seen plenty of passionate coaches not get it done in the win-loss column and that is what ultimately decides a coach's fate. That appeared to me to be the responder's whole point to begin with, not CBJ bashing which to me makes the whole piling on and defending of CBJ and\or his abilities unwarranted and irrelevant...:hi:

I know exactly what golf was responding to.

For those that were here, back when Dooley arrived, we had several posts that posted things that "proved" we had the right guy for the job in Dooley, that in reality didn't. The things posted were admirable things that either Dooley had done or how he conducted himself, but didn't "prove" anything about whether he was the guy.

Jone crying doesn't in and of itself prove he's the right guy for sure, but does prove he at least has the emotional attachment we need.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Responder should have said "winning is what determines whether you are considered a coach", but that's what I took him to mean from the start which makes all the rest of this just coffee house crap.

Of course passion can be an attribute never implied otherwise, I personally like seeing the passion, but I've seen plenty of passionate coaches not get it done in the win-loss column and that is what ultimately decides a coach's fate. That appeared to me to be the responder's whole point to begin with, not CBJ bashing which to me makes the whole piling on and defending of CBJ and\or his abilities unwarranted and irrelevant...:hi:

The point I was making is that quite often, even with good coaches, wins don't come immediately due to various circumstances. How do you judge a good coach until that happens? You look to see whether he possesses the attributes that good coaches have. That's what I took the OP's post to be about.

So, in that scenario, it would be the responder's point about "winning makes a good coach" the useless piling on. The "results or nothing" approach is untenable at this point, due to the state of rebuilding. It gets tiring to hear "win or go home" every time someone posts something encouraging about our coach. I was pointing out that results come from the parts, and we can judge the parts as we see them.

:hi:

 

[Jake]

It's called emotional investment. Something Fulmer lost, Kiffin never had, and Dooley didn't know how to have. He is INVESTED in UT. We haven't seen this in years.

Amen brotha!!!

 

[james_govols]

Orgy at Butch's house after our first ranked win? Who's in? I'm not.

 

[Jake]

Orgy at Butch's house after our first ranked win? Who's in? I'm not.

Not me...

 

[Other_Guy]

For those of you at the beginning saying you didn't know crying made a good coach...

The OP wasn't getting at that.

It's possible Kiffin has a better 1st year resume at UT than Jones. However he was obviously not the right man for the job.

 

[VFL1953]

Yeah I saw that during post game clips.

I thought it was pretty telling. That's what happens when one leaves everything, including their guts, on the field.

Hell, I got choked up when Neal walked into the end zone.

Hell, I got choked up when Worley completed one downfield on third and long. Seriously.

I know there's no crying in football, but I had to head for the bathroom for a couple of minutes after the game ended.

We probably take this college football thing too seriously, but I for one can't help it. Decades old habits are hard to break.

 

[joevol33]

In all of dooleys talk he never had a passion for this team. I simply meant we have someone who 'really' cares about this program. The fans see it, and so do the players. This, plus the fact Butch has done well at other schools is a good sign we have the right guy. What happened when we lost under kiffin? He was a jerk, remember him not shaking frank beamers hand? Losing under Dooley? Remember him making jokes and throwing our players under the bus? Butch, I believe cares. The team will play hard for him.

 

[Jake]

Hell, I got choked up when Worley completed one downfield on third and long. Seriously.

I know there's no crying in football, but I had to head for the bathroom for a couple of minutes after the game ended.

We probably take this college football thing too seriously, but I for one can't help it. Decades old habits are hard to break.

Clinical psychologists have discussed the innate tribal instincts within humans...and provide valid reasoning that our loyalty to football teams derives from that innate need for tribal dynamics...we are social creatures in that way.

Perhaps that's why we take it so seriously!!! I know I do!!

Talk about my mamma all you want...but say one thing about my VOLS...and it's on!!

 

[Orange_Crush]

Clinical psychologists have discussed the innate tribal instincts within humans...and provide valid reasoning that our loyalty to football teams derives from that innate need for tribal dynamics...we are social creatures in that way.

Perhaps that's why we take it so seriously!!! I know I do!!

Talk about my mamma all you want...but say one thing about my VOLS...and it's on!!

She's a potato-nose.

 

[VOLorNuttin]

Wow. Who knew crying was a sign of a good coach.

Way to keep it classy....:ermm:....or not.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

For those of you at the beginning saying you didn't know crying made a good coach...

The OP wasn't getting at that.

It's possible Kiffin has a better 1st year resume at UT than Jones. However he was obviously not the right man for the job.

Yes, but what golf was getting at was how similar things were posted about Dooley and explicitly said those things showed he was the right man for the job.

 

[WoodsmanVol]

The only time Dooley cried was when his jokes fell flat at the post game press conference.

The thread is actually about Butch. Dooley wasn't mentioned until you brought him up. You do know the guy is gone? You do know he's not coming back? There's no modern law in the USA against conjuring, but why can't you let the guy stay gone?

 

[VOLorNuttin]

The thread is actually about Butch. Dooley wasn't mentioned until you brought him up. You do know the guy is gone? You do know he's not coming back? There's no modern law in the USA against conjuring, but why can't you let the guy stay gone?

Uh...:blink:...drawing a contrast to illustrate a point (that things are turning around) is a common communication device. Did you ever take English or literature classes in High School, or did you drop out before that?

 

[Jake]

She's a potato-nose.

Haha

 

[biggestvols]

There is no crying in baseball!!

 

[SmokinBob]

You are wrong. Period. As a matter of fact, I believe you are letting your emotions lead you to illogical conclusions-- in the most literal sense of the word.

Logic: Cause -> Effect.

Logic: Winning football games == the results of a good coach. They don't cause a good coach.

Logic: Many variable go into won games. One of those variable could be emotional investment in the system, people, team, University, etc... which would combine with other variables to produce determination and the eventual result/effect of... Winning games.

Your emotions are leading you to post illogical claptrap. Please step back and think rationally about the situation before mindlessly dragging down a perfectly valid thread.

:hi:

Well said, well said :hi: