With equal talent rank the SEC coaching staffs

[allvol]

Originally posted by Georgia Vol@Oct 18, 2005 2:58 PM
I don't think we can say this yet. We'll know this better in a couple of years when Meyer gets the linemen and QB he needs for his scheme. The telling thing about him is that he has not successfully adapted his scheme to his players. An interesting experiment.

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The shine IS off, because the press and everybody else said he had the talent at Florida... he had the scheme.... he wins immediately everywhere he goes because he's an offensive genius....

and when he gets to the SEC level, the speed of the defenses catches up to him. He's smart enough and will adapt his offense to the SEC game... but he certainly hasn't set the SEC on fire immediately the way the analysts said he would. There are even rumours that Leak is looking to transfer to a I-AA school next season to help his NFL chances?

 

[smokedog#3]

1 tubberville
2 richt
3 spurrier
4 meyer
5 shula
6 nutt
7 fullmer
8 the rest really don't matter.

 

[holdemvol]

Originally posted by smokedog#3@Oct 18, 2005 4:51 PM
1 tubberville
2 richt
3 spurrier
4 meyer
5 shula
6 nutt
7 fullmer
8 the rest really don't matter.

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On what basis do you put Tubberville, Schula, Nutt, or Meyer above Fulmer? You have got to be kidding. Has everyone already forgotten how 2 years ago Auburn was ranked in the top 3 of every pre-season poll out there and then tanked? Hell, Tubberville was going to be fired until the Petrino fiasco. I am not even going to get in to Nutt or Schula.

 

[WA_Vol]

I ranked Tubbyville ahead of Fulmer because he has a losing record against him at Auburn. Tubbyville has 2 wins in 3 trys against Fulmer since he took over there.

And look where each has taken their program recently. Tubbyville took a program that before he took over was 3-8 and last in their division, to now coming off of an undefeated season.

Fulmer on the other hand, is in the midst of probably his most disappointing season since he's been coaching. Starting the season at #2 or #3 in most polls to on the verge of being knocked out of the top 25 if he doesnt win this weekend.

Do you believe if Fulmer had taken over Auburn's program when Tubbyville had, that he would have turned it around the way Tubbyville has? Not sure that I do.

And again, the topic of this thread, is rank coaching staffs if they had equal talent, not who has the best record the first 5 year, etc. Do you think Fulmer has had less talent to work with then Tubbyville?? Does anyone think if Tubbyville had the talent we have now he would have the same record now that Fulmer has? i really doubt it.

Again look at the coaching staffs each have assembled. Does anyone want to trade our coaching staff for Auburns, or think UT's coaching staff is better? I have my doubts.

 

[volmanjr]

Tied for 1st and second Place
Fulmer and Richt
3.Spurrier (but he might fall)
4.Tubby
5. Nutt
6.Shula(but climbing)
7. Myer
8. and below toss up between the rest

 

[GAVol]

Originally posted by oklavol@Oct 18, 2005 7:57 PM
Does anyone think if Tubbyville had the talent we have now he would have the same record now that Fulmer has? i really doubt it.

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If Tuberville is as great at converting talent into wins as you say, then why in 2003 with Ronnie Brown, Jason Campbell, Cadillac Williams etc. did Auburn lose 5 games and not even score a TD until the 3rd game of the season?

 

[dan4vols]

Id honestly rank Nutt ahead of Tubberville

 

[holdemvol]

Originally posted by oklavol@Oct 18, 2005 6:57 PM
I ranked Tubbyville ahead of Fulmer because he has a losing record against him at Auburn. Tubbyville has 2 wins in 3 trys against Fulmer since he took over there. 

And look where each has taken their program recently.  Tubbyville took a program that before he took over was 3-8 and last in their division, to now coming off of an undefeated season.

Fulmer on the other hand, is in the midst of probably his most disappointing season since he's been coaching.  Starting the season at #2 or #3 in most polls to on the verge of being knocked out of the top 25 if he doesnt win this weekend.

Does anyone really believe if Fulmer had taken over Auburns program when Tubbyville had, that he would have turned it around the way Tubbyville has? I sure dont.

And again, the topic of this thread, is rank coaches if they had equal talent, not who has the best record the first 5 year, etc.  Does anyone think Fulmer has had less talent to work with then Tubbyville?? Does anyone think if Tubbyville had the talent we have now he would have the same record now that Fulmer has? i really doubt it.

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I would say he had this type of talent in 03 when they finished with 5 losses. Very similair to what UT is going through so far this year, except I do not beleive UT will end up with 5 losses. We have lost twice to top 10 teams, the year is not over...Look at Ohio State this year, they have 2 losses with great talent, but do you think anyone has their coach in the bottom half of the big ten?

 

[WA_Vol]

Originally posted by GAVol@Oct 18, 2005 8:37 PM
If Tuberville is as great at converting talent into wins as you say, then why in 2003 with Ronnie Brown, Jason Campbell, Cadillac Williams etc. did Auburn lose 5 games and not even score a TD until the 3rd game of the season?

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Come on, those same guys went undefeated later with Tubberville. How do you argue with that??? He had a great season with those guys. More wins then anyone has at Auburn.

 

[GAVol]

Originally posted by oklavol@Oct 18, 2005 8:51 PM
Come on, those same guys went undefeated later with Tubberville. How do you argue with that??? He had a great season with those guys.  More wins then anyone has at Auburn.

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I know those same guys went undefeated. That's exactly my point. If they were so great last year then logically you'd have to say that Tuberville has to have massively underachieved the year before when he had mostly the same personnel and lost 5 games.

Again, I'm not trying to denegrate Tuberville, just not willing to put him in the same category as Spurrier, Fulmer, Richt. He needs to win 9+ games perennially before he deserves that.

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by GAVol@Oct 18, 2005 8:26 PM
I know those same guys went undefeated.  That's exactly my point.  If they were so great last year then logically you'd have to say that Tuberville has to have massively underachieved the year before when he had mostly the same personnel and lost 5 games. 

Again, I'm not trying to denegrate Tuberville, just not willing to put him in the same category as Spurrier, Fulmer, Richt.  He needs to win 9+ games perennially before he deserves that.

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I'd agree with that GAVol.

However, everyone has missed the point: What S-T-A-F-F is the best with equal talent? No head coach makes a staff. They need to be ranked based on the aggregate of the entire staff. Head coaches aren't much without good assistants.

For instance, it was pretty obvious that AUB was better once Borges got there than when the other dude was calling the shots (Callaway?). And Borges improvements were not so simplistic as the preverbial "play calling." It's teaching and organization and all of the little things. Play calling is a bit overrated.

Also, the fact that Supperier won't win as much at USC does not address the question of "equal talent." He had pretty good talent when he took over FL. When he had good talent hardly anyone could touch him. When Fulmer has good talent, he doesn't do so much.

BTW, here is a fun little fact:

Tennessee has ONE top ten finish since the national championship.

It has ZERO SEC titles.

 

[OldVol]

Originally posted by oklavol@Oct 18, 2005 6:57 PM
I ranked Tubbyville ahead of Fulmer because he has a losing record against him at Auburn. Tubbyville has 2 wins in 3 trys against Fulmer since he took over there. 

And look where each has taken their program recently.  Tubbyville took a program that before he took over was 3-8 and last in their division, to now coming off of an undefeated season.

Fulmer on the other hand, is in the midst of probably his most disappointing season since he's been coaching.  Starting the season at #2 or #3 in most polls to on the verge of being knocked out of the top 25 if he doesnt win this weekend.

Do you believe if Fulmer had taken over Auburn's program when Tubbyville had, that he would have turned it around the way Tubbyville has? Not sure that I do.

And again, the topic of this thread, is rank coaching staffs if they had equal talent, not who has the best record the first 5 year, etc.  Do you think Fulmer has had less talent to work with then Tubbyville?? Does anyone think if Tubbyville had the talent we have now he would have the same record now that Fulmer has? i really doubt it.

Again look at the coaching staffs each have assembled.  Does anyone want to trade our coaching staff for Auburns, or think UT's coaching staff is better?  I have my doubts.

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In most cases the equal talent argument is mute because all of the coaches except Miles and Meyer have been where they are and recruited against one another, so all things being equal, the talent is equal, because recruiting is part of coaching and each coach you listed recruited THEIR players.

When you remove the recruiting ability of a coach out of the coaching comparison it is not fair, because recruiting is coaching. It's as much a part of coaching as drawing up plays and devising a game plan.

So, talent is equal. It's equal because they all had the same opportunities to recruit the same players.

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by OldVol@Oct 18, 2005 11:46 PM
In most cases the equal talent argument is mute because all of the coaches except Miles and Meyer have been where they are and recruited against one another, so all things being equal, the talent is equal, because recruiting is part of coaching and each coach you listed recruited THEIR players.

When you remove the recruiting ability of a coach out of the coaching comparison it is not fair, because recruiting is coaching. It's as much a part of coaching as drawing up plays and devising a game plan.

So, talent is equal. It's equal because they all had the same opportunities to recruit the same players.

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OldVol

Agreed. Recruiting is a huge part of COLLEGE coaching - not the NFL, however (aside from draft and free agency).

We do have the ability to look at what MIGHT be the case if everyone had equal talent. Let's assume that there was only one team. Who would you want coaching that team?

I think Fulmer is the best recruiter in the SEC - as a head coach. I don't think Fulmer gets the most of out of his talent. In fact, I think TN gets a very mediocre level of performance given said talent. But I must add that seldomly does an SEC have SUPERIOR talent to the other top schools in the sense of a mismatch. It's closer than that.

 

[smokedog#3]

i'am going by if the coaches have even talent. i would not want to even imagine fullmer coaching a auburn or alabama team 3 or 4 years ago they would have probably not won 2 games. fullmer is a great recruiter, his great talent makes him look good sometimes. the other coaches i listed ahead of fullmer besides richt have never had the kind if talent like we have at tennessee, but they still seem to stay in the sec race before the 5 week of the season when we seem to be out of it. fullmer a great recruiter a below average coach. i stand by my rankings( my opinion ).

 

[shodges119]

I agree there.. But throw Sanders in by saying entire coaching staff and Tennessee drops off the charts...

 

[holdemvol]

Originally posted by smokedog#3@Oct 19, 2005 1:39 PM
i'am going by if the coaches have even talent.  i would not want to even imagine fullmer coaching a auburn or alabama team 3 or 4 years ago they would have probably not won 2 games.  fullmer is a great recruiter,  his great talent makes him look good sometimes.  the other coaches i listed ahead of fullmer besides richt have never had the kind if talent like we have at tennessee,  but they still seem to stay in the sec race before the 5 week of the season when we seem to be out of it.  fullmer a great recruiter a below average coach.  i stand by my rankings(  my opinion  ).

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There have been several years that Fulmer has not had the talent the other schools have had and still finished with 9/10 wins. If you honestly think Fulmer would not have won 2 games with some of the AU/Bama teams you need to lay off of the smokin' smokedog. Also, if you look at scheduleing Bama and AU seem to always have thier tougher games in the second half of the season where as UT plays the tougher games early which would explain why they are still in the race later on.

 

[holdemvol]

Originally posted by Liper@Oct 19, 2005 7:03 AM
OldVol

Agreed.  Recruiting is a huge part of COLLEGE coaching - not the NFL, however (aside from draft and free agency).

We do have the ability to look at what MIGHT be the case if everyone had equal talent.  Let's assume that there was only one team.  Who would you want coaching that team?

I think Fulmer is the best recruiter in the SEC - as a head coach.  I don't think Fulmer gets the most of out of his talent.  In fact, I think TN gets a very mediocre level of performance given said talent.  But I must add that seldomly does an SEC have SUPERIOR talent to the other top schools in the sense of a mismatch.  It's closer than that.

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We are talking about college football, and recruiting is a part of a coaches success, so in my mind if you had one team and had to pick one coach, I am taking the winningest coach in the country. How can you argue with the record?

 

[ChestBumper]

Spurrier (Best Coach, Greatest Offensive mind in football.)
Fulmer (Championships aren't the only measure of a great coach.)
Richt (Good background, will now start to see how good he is.)
Meyer (Average coach, needs to redo his schemes or he will drop.)
Nutt (Gets the most with the least of any coach I have seen.)
Tubberville (Hotshot costs his team almost a game per season with bad decisions.)
Miles (Has had some big wins, but just seems overwhelmed in the SEC.)
Shula (Again, this guy just seems overwhelmed when big games are on the line.)
Croom (Good mind, good man, bad players, in a hole as far as being able to recruit better ones.)
Johnson (The man has patience, I'll give him that.)
Oregeron (His mouth will get him into situations that Ole Miss boosters and alumni won't like.)
Brooks (Sorry coach, looks like Coach Cut might make a return at your expense.)

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by holdemvol@Oct 20, 2005 9:27 AM
There have been several years that Fulmer has not had the talent the other schools have had and still finished with 9/10 wins.

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OK. When were those years? I'd like to hear this.

Also, HOLDEMVOL also said: "We are talking about college football, and recruiting is a part of a coaches success, so in my mind if you had one team and had to pick one coach, I am taking the winningest coach in the country. How can you argue with the record?"

Bob Pruett? He has had the winningest record. That record is skewed. If you take any of the other great schools where the coach over the same time period, you'll find some different stats. Remember, people like Bowden and Spurrier coached at bad schools before they built their powerhouses. Fulmer stepped into a healthy program and recruited well.

We've already stipulated that recruting is part of COLLEGE coaching. Once the players are there, the question is very easy: WHAT STAFF WOULD YOU WANT COACHING THEM AFTER THEY ARE ALREADY THERE?

 

[WA_Vol]

Originally posted by Liper@Oct 20, 2005 12:11 PM
OK.  When were those years?  I'd like to hear this.

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I'd like to hear about those years too...........

 

[holdemvol]

Originally posted by oklavol@Oct 20, 2005 12:01 PM
I'd like to hear about those years too...........

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How about last year? UT was supposed to be "rebuilding" and once again churned out a 10 win season. Are you saying that UT has had the most talent in the SEC every year since Fulmer took over? I don't think so and 9-10 wins has been the norm.

 

[smokedog#3]

holdemvol you must either not watch alot of football or not watch the vols. tennessee since fullmer's era has always and i'll state again always had better talent than the rest of the sec except for georgia since richt has been there he has done very well. take a look at how many players we put into the nfl and how many other teams have been and you will see pretty much year end and year out gerogia is the only team to draw comparisons. i won't even mention 2001 when half of our team seem to make it into the nfl and we still didn't win the sec ( outcoached by saban ).

 

[holdemvol]

Originally posted by smokedog#3@Oct 20, 2005 3:50 PM
holdemvol you must either not watch alot of football or not watch the vols.  tennessee since fullmer's era has always and i'll state again always had better talent than the rest of the sec except for georgia since richt has been there he has done very well.  take a look at how many players we put into the nfl and how many other teams have been and you will see pretty much year end and year out gerogia is the only team to draw comparisons.  i won't even mention 2001 when half of our team seem to make it into the nfl and we still didn't win the sec (  outcoached by saban  ).

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Are you serious? You just stated that every single year in the Fulmer era UT has had more talent than the REST OF THE SEC! Auburn had 4 players go in the FIRST ROUND last year. Florida is always loaded with talent, and LSU has more talent than anyone in the SEC this year. Hell, some analysts have stated LSU was more talented top to bottom than USC this year! 2001 was a great year for UT and if you want to blame the LSU loss on Fulmer, fine but he wasn't the one making stupid on the field mistakes. Florida by the way was the more talented team that year and was heavily favored vs. UT but I guess the UT win was all player performance and had nothing to do with good coaching right? I would have to contend that you, my friend are the one who knows little about football if you would make such a ridiculous statement as UT has had the most talent in the SEC every single year under Fulmer. And for the record, I have 38 football games either stored on my DVR or burned on DVD from this season alone so I watch plenty of football buddy.

 

[ChestBumper]

holdem- Save it man, they think they know it all.

 

[Jmxvol]

Originally posted by bleedingorange@Oct 17, 2005 9:56 AM
1.  Georgia
2.  Auburn
3.  Tennessee
4.  Alabama
5.  LSU
6.  South Carolina
7.  Arkansas
8.  Florida
9.  Miss. State
10. Vanderbilt
11.Mississippi
12.Kentucky

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If you take away the Randy Sanders factor, I say Tennessee #1...