wow obama "should we comprimise safety so some corporate jet owner gets a tax break"

#26
#26
volinbham said:
If anything, it will show that tax increases aren't going to do squat to solve the problem.
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The talking points will be similar to those for the stimulus. "It didn't work, b/c it wasnt big enough" will become "It didn't work, b/c the tax rate should be even higher and include people making $250k+."
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#27
#27
GAVol said:
He's also operating under the assumption that govt spending is a fixed cost. History has taught us that the more revenue that comes in the more govt manages to spend.
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Actually i wasn't i know that if the government has it it will spend it. That's what its for. Stuff will always need doing.
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#28
#28
lawgator1 said:
Nothing has been cut, yet (not in the sense we are talking about). I'd have preferred to see Obama discuss mega-issues on these points, i.e. Medicare and Medicaid, but its clear he and his folks have made up their mind to clearly focus on painting this as rich vs.poor and middle-class.

The reality is that this approach is the one most likely to work since substantial majority of the country blames the recession on Bush and Wall Street.
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Who should we blame for keeping the recession going?
 
#30
#30
volfanjustin said:
Who should we blame for keeping the recession going?
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That's a complicated question. Probably a lot of people, institutions, and systemic problems. I'll include Obama in that. Enough for him not to be reelected? Could be.

As the saying goes, people are sick and tired of being sick and tired.

If I were involved in someone's campaign right now I'd be advising them to quit whining and to lay out a viable and doable plan to get us moving forward, then describe to people what it will be like when we get there. Get people optimistic again.

I think that was one of, if not the top one of, Reagan's skills. He made people feel good about things and right now everyone feels lousy and spend all their time blaming each other. It got old a few years back.
 
#31
#31
lawgator1 said:
That's a complicated question. Probably a lot of people, institutions, and systemic problems. I'll include Obama in that. Enough for him not to be reelected? Could be.

As the saying goes, people are sick and tired of being sick and tired.

If I were involved in someone's campaign right now I'd be advising them to quit whining and to lay out a viable and doable plan to get us moving forward, then describe to people what it will be like when we get there. Get people optimistic again.

I think that was one of, if not the top one of, Reagan's skills. He made people feel good about things and right now everyone feels lousy and spend all their time blaming each other. It got old a few years back.
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Dead on.
 
#32
#32
GAVol said:
They don't necessarily. The point is that it doesn't matter how much you slop the pig, he's going to eat everything you throw over the fence.
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This was worth quoting.

You pitch him enough and he will blow up. Leaving no BBQ.:)

Sounds like a similar comparison.
 
#33
#33
lawgator1 said:
The reality is that this approach is the one most likely to work since substantial majority of the country blames the recession on Bush and Wall Street.
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i'd love to see a poll on this. i think obama certainly believes that the country blames these people or at the very least is trying to get them to believe this, but i'm not sure i buy it personally.
 
#34
#34
droski said:
i'd love to see a poll on this. i think obama certainly believes that the country blames these people or at the very least is trying to get them to believe this, but i'm not sure i buy it personally.
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CBS poll:

Yet few blame Mr. Obama for the economic conditions in the United States. Just 8 percent say Mr. Obama is "most to blame" for the state of the economy, compared to 7 percent earlier. About 26 percent blame his predecessor, President George W. Bush, and 25 percent blame Wall Street. Those figures compare with 28 percent and 22 percent three weeks ago.


Eleven percent of respondents said Congress was mostly to blame, compared to 10 percent in early June.



So most to blame, in order, is:

Bush 26 %
Wall Street 25 %
Congress 11 %
Obama 8 %


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20075344-503544.html
 
#35
#35
IMO bush and Obama both get a disproportiantely large share of the blame... I've always been of the notion that the POTUS never has as large a direct effect on the economy as people believe (by a long way) but it's usually the primary barometer for elections.

There are a lot of things to blame on bush, but I wouldn't put the economic collapse on him. At least nowhere near as much as other libs do.
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#37
#37
droski said:
51% is a substantial majority?
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I probably should have said substantially more relative to Obama. Because, yes, 51 to 8 is substantially more in my book.

And my point is, there's still a groundswell of support out there for the notion that the deck is stacked in favor of big business. And even that the dealer owns a thousand shares of BP.

Obama saying that the Dems have agreed to approx. a trillion in spending cuts and that some of these are going to take away programs that the middle class or poor enjoy, and then saying, "But the Republicans want to give the wealthy tax cuts" is Obama taking advantage of the sentiment that is already out there.

In other words, of course Obama is going to use class warfare as a tactic on this issue. But what the GOP and Fox don't seem to understand is that a lot of people (not all, but a lot) believe that the warfare goes on in the halls of Congress and that guys like Obama are in there making the wealthy pay their share of the way out of this.

Especially because the perception is that the super wealthy shoulder a large part of the blame for getting us here to begin with.

You can argue all you want that the perception is wrong. But if you ask blue collar Rs sitting in a bar on a Friday night whether they think BP or Exon or Bank of America execs are getting all the breaks, I'd be stunned if you didn't hear 100 % agreement with that premise.
 
#38
#38
The missing facts in President Obama’s news conference - The Fact Checker - The Washington Post

In a bit of class jujitsu, the president six times mentioned eliminating a tax loophole for corporate jets, frequently pitting it against student loans or food safety. It’s a potent image, but in the context of a $4 trillion goal, it is essentially meaningless. The item is so small the White House could not even provide an estimate of the revenue that would be raised, but other estimates suggest it would amount to $3 billion over 10 years.

Meanwhile, student financial assistance, just for 2011, is about $42 billion. So the corporate jet loophole — which involves the fact that such assets can be depreciated over five years, rather than the seven for commercial jets — just is not going to raise a lot of money. It certainly wouldn’t save many student loans.
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#39
#39
lawgator1 said:
I probably should have said substantially more relative to Obama. Because, yes, 51 to 8 is substantially more in my book.

And my point is, there's still a groundswell of support out there for the notion that the deck is stacked in favor of big business. And even that the dealer owns a thousand shares of BP.

Obama saying that the Dems have agreed to approx. a trillion in spending cuts and that some of these are going to take away programs that the middle class or poor enjoy, and then saying, "But the Republicans want to give the wealthy tax cuts" is Obama taking advantage of the sentiment that is already out there.

In other words, of course Obama is going to use class warfare as a tactic on this issue. But what the GOP and Fox don't seem to understand is that a lot of people (not all, but a lot) believe that the warfare goes on in the halls of Congress and that guys like Obama are in there making the wealthy pay their share of the way out of this.

Especially because the perception is that the super wealthy shoulder a large part of the blame for getting us here to begin with.

You can argue all you want that the perception is wrong. But if you ask blue collar Rs sitting in a bar on a Friday night whether they think BP or Exon or Bank of America execs are getting all the breaks, I'd be stunned if you didn't hear 100 % agreement with that premise.
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LG. . . reading joe six packs mind since 2000.
 
#41
#41
MG1968 said:
The missing facts in President Obama’s news conference - The Fact Checker - The Washington Post
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The remarkable thing about that is that the GOP has bragged about making or proposing spending cuts that are a fraction of the value of that loophole.

A small fraction at that.

They have bragged about cutting programs in the tens of millions. But when there is a loophole of $3 billion that their corporate benefactors like? Well, that's not worth fussing over.

Such utter crap.
 
#42
#42
I wonder how many people are employed because of the private jet industry. Furthermore, how many of those employees are unionized? My guess is that Obama's singling out of private jets has more to do with who is holding his campaign purse strings than any actual desire to reduce the deficit.
 
#43
#43
droski said:
i've actually attended a conference that explains this and it definetely does encourage people to buy these things. not sure torpedoing the corporate jet market is worth a couple hundred mill a year in tax revenue though.
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Conference put on by ......

Shall we guess?
 
#46
#46
So pointing out that rich people have all the money is class warfare? The fact is thats one of those words meant to incite hostility. Before the Bush tax cuts were in place the economy was in a better place. Maybe not for the richest of people but definitely for the rest of us.
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#47
#47
ToineMac said:
So pointing out that rich people have all the money is class warfare? The fact is thats one of those words meant to incite hostility. Before the Bush tax cuts were in place the economy was in a better place. Maybe not for the richest of people but definitely for the rest of us.
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before the Bush tax cuts, the economy was in recession due to the dot.com bubble bursting and a small event known as 9-11
 
#48
#48
ToineMac said:
So pointing out that rich people have all the money is class warfare? The fact is thats one of those words meant to incite hostility. Before the Bush tax cuts were in place the economy was in a better place. Maybe not for the richest of people but definitely for the rest of us.
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how can they be rich if they don't have money? and i suppose you have a theory as to why tax cuts hurt the economy?
 
#49
#49
droski said:
how can they be rich if they don't have money? and i suppose you have a theory as to why tax cuts hurt the economy?
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I don't think the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy hurt the economy.

On the flip side, I think that the evidence that in the current environment continuing them would help the economy is extremely thin. Nonexistent, really.

The question is one of policy. If, in the interests of paying down the debt, we are going to cut a trillion dollars from programs that benefit the lower and middle classes, then it seems only fair we eliminate tax breaks for enormously wealthy corporations and the top 1 percent of income earners.

As I've said earlier, it doesn't even have to be an even match. I'd take 2 for 1.

So, for the trillion in cuts, I'd say eliminating tax breaks for the very top to the tune of $500 billion would make sense.

And right now, like it or not, Obama has really outflanked the GOP on this. If it doesn't happen and the debt ceiling is not raised because no deal can be made on just half in tax break rollback what was made in cuts, I think the GOP suffers HUGE in the polls.
 
#50
#50
Wealthy don't owe the money for all this economic mess. The lower middle class does for buying houses way outside there price range. I'm glad I wised up and backed out of the home I was looking at. Its a classic chicken/egg debate are people being dumb with money because they see government spreading like crazy or government just over spending because that is what people of America are doing.
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