15 Numbers: November Edition

#51
#51
BigZiti09 said:
I have no idea what the OR% is, nor do I care.

We need to play like we did the last two games. Whatever that means.

I will say this... When we play like garbage, there seems to be less movement in our O and we settle for moving the ball around the key and jacking threes. I think that is what is perceived as playing slow by our fans and possibly rightfully so. Personally, I think our D slows teams down and we get a lot of offensive boards which is what is showing up on the possessions per game stat. Using the eye test, we don't play like Kevin O is coaching.
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You brought up OR as your argument that we don't play slow.
Now you don't care. Interesting.
 
#54
#54
calban said:
Yes we do.
But LSU grabs more at home than we do on the road and still averages 81 possessions.
Say uncle.
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Who has LSU played at home? Who have we played on the road?

Edit: This is LSU's home schedule.

Northwestern St
New Orleans
Southeastern Louisianna

You are comparing those to Xavier, UTEP and Wake Forest away from home.
 
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#55
#55
BigZiti09 said:
Who has LSU played at home? Who have we played on the road?

Edit: This is LSU's home schedule.

Northwestern St
New Orleans
Southeastern Louisianna

You are comparing those to Xavier, UTEP and Wake Forest away from home.
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Okay. Even it up then.
They're 81 possessions at home and we're 63 either way.
We're 46% OR overall and they're like 44% OR. We're 4th and they're 14th in OR.
Is that enough difference to make up 18 possessions a game. Or do we just play slower?
 
#56
#56
calban said:
Okay. Even it up then.
They're 81 possessions at home and we're 63 either way.
We're 46% OR overall and they're like 44% OR. We're 4th and they're 14th in OR.
Is that enough difference to make up 18 possessions a game. Or do we just play slower?
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I don't think the argument is that we play faster than LSU. The argument is we play faster than what our fanbase perceives. We aren't takibg the air out of the ball and playing games in the 40s and 50s like O'Neill or Bo Ryan.

Our tempo is faster than fans believe, yet still not an advanced pace like OK St, LSU, etc.
 
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#57
#57
cncchris33 said:
I don't think the argument is that we play faster than LSU. The argument is we play faster than what our fanbase perceives. We aren't takibg the air out of the ball and playing games in the 40s and 50s like O'Neill or Bo Ryan.

Our tempo is faster than fans believe, yet still not an advanced pace like OK St, LSU, etc.
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Exactly.
 
#58
#58
calban said:
Okay. Even it up then.
They're 81 possessions at home and we're 63 either way.
We're 46% OR overall and they're like 44% OR. We're 4th and they're 14th in OR.
Is that enough difference to make up 18 possessions a game. Or do we just play slower?
Click to expand...

Another difference in your stats is you are talking about their "pace" versus 3 doormats and ours "pace" versus Xavier, UTEP and Wake. Granted, those aren't juggernauts, but they are good enough for us to lose twice against.
 
#59
#59
BigZiti09 said:
Common sense.

1. More offensive rebounds = longer possessions.
2. We deny passes on the perimeter = longer possessions for opponent

We don't play "slow."
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Looking over the top offensive rebounding teams, there is an equal array of fast teams and slow teams.

Plus, remember that the o rebounding % is tempo neutral as well. You're not getting more offensive rebounds than other teams, just more per possession.
 
#60
#60
BigZiti09 said:
Another difference in your stats is you are talking about their "pace" versus 3 doormats and ours "pace" versus Xavier, UTEP and Wake. Granted, those aren't juggernauts, but they are good enough for us to lose twice against.
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Their average pace is 78.
Do you want to bring Memphis and Butler into the mix?
Truth is we play a slower pace than most teams in the country. If it suits us and we win that's fine. But it isn't common sense that we look slower because we rebound better or stretch defenses.
We play one of the lowest possession controlled offenses in the game, but like I say if it wins I'm fine.
Next time Martin grabs thompson's arm when he takes off on a break, ask yourself how fast Martin wants to play.
 
#61
#61
Why are we comparing Tennessee's tempo to LSU, one of the most uptempo teams in the country? While we 're at it let's throw VMI into the picture, good gosh.

Nobody is saying Tennessee is the new VCU, they're saying we don't play as slow paced as people are trying to say. The possessions per game are not a great sole indicator to our tempo mainly because of our superior offensive rebounding.

It's why our possessions per game rank 338 in the country and our points per game ranks 156...we are much better offensively than people want to believe, as proven by our points per possession being top 30 in the country.
 
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#62
#62
calban said:
Their average pace is 78.
Do you want to bring Memphis and Butler into the mix?
Truth is we play a slower pace than most teams in the country. If it suits us and we win that's fine. But it isn't common sense that we look slower because we rebound better or stretch defenses.
We play one of the lowest possession controlled offenses in the game, but like I say if it wins I'm fine.
Next time Martin grabs thompson's arm when he takes off on a break, ask yourself how fast Martin wants to play.
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I don't think Martin wants to play at neck-break pace but I think that the notion that we are slow is largely a perceived misconception.

As to the bolded, I didn't say we look slower because of those things. I said we look slow when we play like crap.

I said the possession stat you keep jocking is due in part because of 2 things in my opinion: Offensive rebounds and stretching out possessions on D.

It's not as if we are running clock the whole game.
 
#63
#63
bleedingTNorange said:
Why are we comparing Tennessee's tempo to LSU, one of the most uptempo teams in the country? While we 're at it let's throw VMI into the picture, good gosh.

Nobody is saying Tennessee is the new VCU, they're saying we don't play as slow paced as people are trying to say. The possessions per game are not a great sole indicator to our tempo mainly because of our superior offensive rebounding.

It's why our possessions per game rank 338 in the country and our points per game ranks 156...we are much better offensively than people want to believe, as proven by our points per possession being top 30 in the country.
Click to expand...

It's not that hard to comprehend is it? Is Calban serious? I'm not sure.
 
#65
#65
bleedingTNorange said:
Why are we comparing Tennessee's tempo to LSU, one of the most uptempo teams in the country? While we 're at it let's throw VMI into the picture, good gosh.

Nobody is saying Tennessee is the new VCU, they're saying we don't play as slow paced as people are trying to say. The possessions per game are not a great sole indicator to our tempo mainly because of our superior offensive rebounding.

It's why our possessions per game rank 338 in the country and our points per game ranks 156...we are much better offensively than people want to believe, as proven by our points per possession being top 30 in the country.
Click to expand...
I used LSU because their offensive rebounding percentage is close to ours and they average 15 more possessions a game..
The discussion wasn't about how good we are offensively.
It wasn't about us picking up the pace either.
 
#66
#66
calban said:
Actually, he didn't support your argument.
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Sounds to me like he did. You want to compare our pace against teams where we went 2-2 on the road to LSU's pace versus 3 doormats they played at home when LSU obviously plays much faster than us to begin with.

I'm not going to get into a "stat" argument with you that requires me to start pulling data from various sites. That's why when you asked for a source I said "my brain" was my source. I watch the games and see that we aren't playing slow.

Offensive rebounds = longer possessions. Tough man to man D that denies passes on the perimeter = longer possessions for opponent. We aren't walking the ball up the court and shooting with 3 seconds on the shot clock every trip.
 
#67
#67
BigZiti09 said:
It's not that hard to comprehend is it? Is Calban serious? I'm not sure.
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I mean, it seems like Calban is spot on. You guys play at a slow tempo. There aren't an over-abundance of fast breaks, you guys set up your offense and try to get the ball into the post. There are a high amount of offensive boards, but that's not going to take you guys from 332nd to 170th (the average) or something.

On defense, you get back well which means no fast breaks for the opposing side.

You take really long offensive possessions and force opponents to do the same. That makes for low possessions. That doesn't necessarily mean boring possessions though.
 
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#68
#68
BigZiti09 said:
Sounds to me like he did. You want to compare our pace against teams where we went 2-2 on the road to LSU's pace versus 3 doormats they played at home when LSU obviously plays much faster than us to begin with.

I'm not going to get into a "stat" argument with you that requires me to start pulling data from various sites. That's why when you asked for a source I said "my brain" was my source. I watch the games and see that we aren't playing slow.

Offensive rebounds = longer possessions. Tough man to man D that denies passes on the perimeter = longer possessions for opponent. We aren't walking the ball up the court and shooting with 3 seconds on the shot clock every trip.
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You have played one game that broke 70 possessions (UTEP).

LSU has yet to play a game with less than 70 possessions.
 
#69
#69
BigZiti09 said:
Sounds to me like he did. You want to compare our pace against teams where we went 2-2 on the road to LSU's pace versus 3 doormats they played at home when LSU obviously plays much faster than us to begin with.

I'm not going to get into a "stat" argument with you that requires me to start pulling data from various sites. That's why when you asked for a source I said "my brain" was my source. I watch the games and see that we aren't playing slow.

Offensive rebounds = longer possessions. Tough man to man D that denies passes on the perimeter = longer possessions for opponent. We aren't walking the ball up the court and shooting with 3 seconds on the shot clock every trip.
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Right there. You said uncle and didn't even know it.
Which is it? We play faster, but it doesn't look like it or they play faster and rebound almost as well as we do.
 
#70
#70
MemphisCanes said:
I mean, it seems like Calban is spot on. You guys play at a slow tempo. There aren't an over-abundance of fast breaks, you guys set up your offense and try to get the ball into the post. There are a high amount of offensive boards, but that's not going to take you guys from 332nd to 170th (the average) or something.

On defense, you get back well which means no fast breaks for the opposing side.

You take really long offensive possessions and force opponents to do the same. That makes for low possessions. That doesn't necessarily mean boring possessions though.
Click to expand...

I would say it's somewhere in between. I don't think we take really long offensive possessions that I've noticed but we do have two bigs that are gonna get their touches so maybe possessions are longer than I realize but I accept it because I understand they want to get the ball down low.
 
#71
#71
MemphisCanes said:
I mean, it seems like Calban is spot on. You guys play at a slow tempo. There aren't an over-abundance of fast breaks, you guys set up your offense and try to get the ball into the post. There are a high amount of offensive boards, but that's not going to take you guys from 332nd to 170th (the average) or something.

On defense, you get back well which means no fast breaks for the opposing side.

You take really long offensive possessions and force opponents to do the same. That makes for low possessions. That doesn't necessarily mean boring possessions though.
Click to expand...

Correct

Offensive rebounding doesn't have that big of an impact on the tempo.
 
#72
#72
The game with Wichita State will be fun to see the differing styles of play. Thanks for the stats, those are really interesting. I haven't gotten to watch any of the Vols this year, but do the stats really jive with the reality of your pace? Is it really that slow of a game pace?
 
#73
#73
calban said:
Right there. You said uncle and didn't even know it.
Which is it? We play faster, but it doesn't look like it or they play faster and rebound almost as well as we do.
Click to expand...

I never said we play fast or faster than LSU. I said we don't play slow or as slow as it is perceived by fans.
 
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