15 Numbers: November Edition

#126
#126
Anyone who thinks analytics are useless is crazy.

There's a reason guys like John Hollinger and other analytics guys are being hired away from espn and other outlets. He was hired by the Grizz and I think they've done okay for themselves.
 
#128
#128
ranradVOL said:
Anyone who thinks analytics are useless is crazy.

There's a reason guys like John Hollinger and other analytics guys are being hired away from espn and other outlets. He was hired by the Grizz and I think they've done okay for themselves.
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Anyone who thinks every stat tells a story is a fool. Some stats are worthless. Some take in zero other factors. Some can be skewed in either direction. some can even take on 2 different arguments on the same point. Some look positive but are a negative (maymon's ft rate/he can't be in at the end of a tight game, which is a negative)
 
#130
#130
Spartacavolus said:
Anyone who thinks every stat tells a story is a fool. Some stats are worthless. Some take in zero other factors. Some can be skewed in either direction. some can even take on 2 different arguments on the same point. Some look positive but are a negative (maymon's ft rate/he can't be in at the end of a tight game, which is a negative)
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Some stats are necessary else at the end of the season the committee would throw 351 team names in a hat and pick out 68.
Then again, last few seasons, that might be a better system.
Get what you're saying though. the game can get over analyzed.
 
#131
#131
Spartacavolus said:
is this another thread to somehow try to prove a previous point/s a few weeks ago? Stats are for statisticians, not basketball people.
Throwing a Barton assist % in there or whatever the f that is was put in for a subtle point of some sort?, followed by "the fanbase *****ing" about offense. Thin as saran wrap.

When you get away from useless stats and want to talk hoops, I'm always here. When you want to maneuver silly stats to try to back a stance, I'll be here to shoot them down.
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Oh Sweet Jesus.
 
#133
#133
Spartacavolus said:
Anyone who thinks every stat tells a story is a fool. Some stats are worthless. Some take in zero other factors. Some can be skewed in either direction. some can even take on 2 different arguments on the same point. Some look positive but are a negative (maymon's ft rate/he can't be in at the end of a tight game, which is a negative)
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Maymon's FTrate is only a positive, friend. FT rate is how many FT's you shoot divided by how many FG's you shoot. It shows how well a player draws fouls on an opposing team and gets to the line for easy buckets. Aside from a chance for 1 or 2 points (or possibly an And-1 play), it means Maymon is drawing fouls against another team's post players, essentially removing them from play and making them non-factors. It has zero bearing on how often he actually makes those FGs or FTs. It is an amazing stat to tell how well someone is playing on offense, and how well Maymon shoots his FTs really has nothing to do with it.

I know you may have played or coached but you're seriously behind the times on this.
 
#134
#134
I'm trying to figure out what is more interesting, the discussion or that MC has become the voice of reason around here. I definitely agree that numbers have their place. But as for Maymon I gotta believe that coaches tell their players if he gets inside position instead of giving up a bunny foul the dude. Cause even "old man Spartacus"(jk guy) agrees his important stat is 60%.
 
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#135
#135
Lefteye said:
I'm trying to figure out what is more interesting, the discussion or that MC has become the voice of reason around here. I definitely agree that numbers have their place. But as for Maymon I gotta believe that coaches tell their players if he gets inside position instead of giving up a bunny foul the dude. Cause even "old man Spartacus"(jk guy) agrees his important stat is 60%.
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I've always been the voice of reason, but only the reasonable are able to see that.
 
#136
#136
MemphisCanes said:
I've always been the voice of reason, but only the reasonable are able to see that.
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I don't know player, when the convo turns to Memphis basketball the tint of your shades turn pretty dark. Nah, easy to see you know what you speak.
 
#138
#138
the most alarming stat on this team is that we average 11.1 assists per game. thats 277th in the country. and it shows.
 
#139
#139
MemphisCanes said:
Maymon's FTrate is only a positive, friend.
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No, it's not, when a player makes 60%. It means you can't go down low to him late in a tight game with his great ft rate because he gets to the line, shoots poorly and you can't have Maymon on the line late at that %.

Call me behind the times if you want but you and others have proven to know squat about stats when you toss them out and I have to come in here and correct you knuckleheads that refuse to pay attention when I do. Chalk up another one by your name.
Good stats are good. Bs stats are bs. You thinking Maymons high ft rate as a 60% shooter is only a positive shows you lack understanding of your own topic.
 
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#140
#140
Lefteye said:
I'm trying to figure out what is more interesting, the discussion or that MC has become the voice of reason around here. I definitely agree that numbers have their place. But as for Maymon I gotta believe that coaches tell their players if he gets inside position instead of giving up a bunny foul the dude. Cause even "old man Spartacus"(jk guy) agrees his important stat is 60%.
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Ha. Only 43, but old for this place. FT rate is great if you are nailing them. If you and everybody else knows there is a better chance he misses both than makes both, it's not positive and using that stat to feed a player will cost you the game more than it will win it.
 
#141
#141
griffdog14 said:
the most alarming stat on this team is that we average 11.1 assists per game. thats 277th in the country. and it shows.
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As long as the TO rate is low it's fine with me. We do need to pick it up at little but we just aren't a team that is going to get a lot of assist.
 
#142
#142
SJAVol32 said:
As long as the TO rate is low it's fine with me. We do need to pick it up at little but we just aren't a team that is going to get a lot of assist.
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we don't run an offense of pick and rolls and clearouts that create assists and Stokes is unfortunately too seldom catching and quickly putting it off the square.
 
#143
#143
Spartacavolus said:
Ha. Only 43, but old for this place. FT rate is great if you are nailing them. If you and everybody else knows there is a better chance he misses both than makes both, it's not positive and using that stat to feed a player will cost you the game more than it will win it.
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I understand your argument and know that all statistics are not accurate. As I said the last time you were arguing with the same people. It is like Benjamin Disraeli said " There are three kinds of lies. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.".
 
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#144
#144
Spartacavolus said:
we don't run an offense of pick and rolls and clearouts that create assists and Stokes is unfortunately too seldom catching and quickly putting it off the square.
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Agreed. I HATE when he catches in the post and instead of making a quick move he dribbles into traffic or takes forever to make a move. He's quick enough in the post to get by post players before they react. could help with the assist numbers.
 
#146
#146
Spartacavolus said:
No, it's not, when a player makes 60%. It means you can't go down low to him late in a tight game with his great ft rate because he gets to the line, shoots poorly and you can't have Maymon on the line late at that %.

Call me behind the times if you want but you and others have proven to know squat about stats when you toss them out and I have to come in here and correct you knuckleheads that refuse to pay attention when I do. Chalk up another one by your name.
Good stats are good. Bs stats are bs. You thinking Maymons high ft rate as a 60% shooter is only a positive shows you lack understanding of your own topic.
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That's like saying that a guy's 60% FG shooting is not good, because he shoots FT at 65%.

A player can shoot 50% from the line and a high FT rate is still a good thing. Who cares if he doesn't make FT's late in the game, that has nothing to do with this stat.

The two stats aren't related at all. One measures one thing, one measures something completely different.

Believe me, brother, you're not correcting anyone in here. Several people have tried to explain this to you.
 
#147
#147
MemphisCanes said:
That's like saying that a guy's 60% FG shooting is not good, because he shoots FT at 65%.

A player can shoot 50% from the line and a high FT rate is still a good thing. Who cares if he doesn't make FT's late in the game, that has nothing to do with this stat.

The two stats aren't related at all. One measures one thing, one measurpes something completely different.

Believe me, brother, you're not correcting anyone in here. Several people have tried to explain this to you.
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So its a good thing to get to the line when you don't hit them? If a guy is at 90% ft rate but has never made a ft, is it a good thing?
I can look at various angles when discussing a topic or stat. Obviously, you can't. When the majority of vn thinks they are trying to explain something to me, I like where I am. Just like the poss/gm stat analysis that went on for weeks and still creeps up though proven moot in a matter of seconds with some simple questions. I was in the minority there as well.
 
#148
#148
Spartacavolus said:
So its a good thing to get to the line when you don't hit them? If a guy is at 90% ft rate but has never made a ft, is it a good thing?
I can look at various angles when discussing a topic or stat. Obviously, you can't. When the majority of vn thinks they are trying to explain something to me, I like where I am. Just like the poss/gm stat analysis that went on for weeks and still creeps up though proven moot in a matter of seconds with some simple questions. I was in the minority there as well.
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As a general rule, yes. It's good to get to the line, even if you're not making both. If you're not making either, that's an issue, but as you've pointed out numerous times, Maymon shoots 60%.

He hits 60% from the line, and 53% from the floor. FT rate is simply your FG's attempted divided by your FT's attempted. He makes the majority of his FG's, and when he gets to the line, he makes "the majority" there as well. FT Rate has nothing to do with who you want shooting free throws in the closing seconds of a game. Zip. Nada.

To answer your weird hypothetical, yes a guy being 90% from the stripe is only good. How good depends on other factors.
 
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#149
#149
Maymon's league leading ft rate correlates to him being about choice #8 or 9 on the team to have on the line down the stretch in games. That's not a positive right now. It's actually a negative.
That you can't see how his ft rate and 60% made creates a problem for a coach down the stretch of games isn't my problem.
 
#150
#150
Spartacavolus said:
Maymon's league leading ft rate correlates to him being about choice #8 or 9 on the team to have on the line down the stretch in games. That's not a positive right now. It's actually a negative.
That you can't see how his ft rate and 60% made creates a problem for a coach down the stretch of games isn't my problem.
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As far as I understand it, his free throw rate is an overall positive because:

1. Against 90% of teams for 90% of the game (i.e. not the last 10% you are talking about), it is beneficial to try to get their big men in foul trouble because of the talent drop off after their starters come out. You are right in that the last moments of a game, you only want good/decent free throw shooters out there shooting them, but early, it's helpful to have guys on the line even if they are mediocre at shooting free throws.

2. The rest of our team is okay at free throws, so we can get in the double bonus faster and score more because of players like McRae.

On a completely different note, these stats were interesting, but I think that they might not mean much yet because it's probably too early to start using current player statistics as a barometer for how well their rest of the year will go...small sample size and all that. I haven't researched when basketball advanced statistics stabilize (unlike baseball), though, so if anyone has a link/book, I'd be interested.
 
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