'17' TN ATH Tee Higgins (Clemson commit)

#9,153
#9,153
cncchris33 said:
Peter King of MMQB said yesterday morning that that is exactly what has kept TO out of the HOF to this point. Like it or not, the HOF isn't solely just about putting up gaudy numbers with no respect to anything else. The perception that you were a bad locker room guy and that you may have had a negative effect on your team and possibly the outcome of games due to your selfishness and immaturity is going to be a strike against you. Especially in the eyes of the media, most of which haven't ever stepped foot on a professional football field. Football is the ultimate team sport, and in the eyes of those voters, being a good teammate matters. He'll get in eventually, but his attitude has kept him out thus far.
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I think everyone knows WHY he hasn't been voted in, is it justified?? If this had always been the standard that would be one thing, but there are PLENTY of HOFers that were crappy teammates and crappy people in general. All of that gets sensationalized so much more these days.
 
#9,154
#9,154
The Dog said:
This is my last post in this thread because it needs to die. From everything I've heard, Higgins wanted to get out of the area and most importantly needed to, for his own good. This happens occasionally, it's not always Butch's fault. Yes, Higgins is an elite talent, but if he hung around here, the bad influences could have gotten to him. He realized that and made the best decision for him. I can respect that.
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All of that is well and good, and if those were his reasons it's hard to fault him for that. In fact, these are high school kids making a huge, life altering decision so I don't begrudge anyone for making a decision they think is best for their future, no matter what their reasoning. It's their life, their decision.

I do, however, have an issue with trolling and mocking your home team fans after said decision.
 
#9,159
#9,159
BigZiti09 said:
Who?

http://www.profootballhof.com/heroes-of-the-game/years/#2010
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Don't leave out the "and crappy people in general" part of what you quoted. Are you a member of the media? Just pulling part of a quote to suit your argument? Back in the day, there was no interwebs so we don't even know how many of those guys were bad people/teammates. I will give you a few off the top of my head that would fit the bill of not great humans, not great teammates (looking out for themselves over the team) or at the very least selfish.....

Michael Irvin
OJ Simpson
Lawrence Taylor
Warren Sapp
Riggins
Hornung
Namath
Charles Haley
Our very own Doug Atkins was no saint

This is just a few. Who knows how some of these guys acted before we all knew every move they made.

There are guys in the baseball HOF who weren't good people or teammates.

I get your point. I don't even like TO, but you can't make up new criteria just bc you don't like someone.
 
#9,160
#9,160
BigOrangeTrain said:
Seriously guys

giphy.gif
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Best Walking Dead Character.

RIP Shane.
 
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#9,161
#9,161
LaagerVol said:
Don't leave out the "and crappy people in general" part of what you quoted. Are you a member of the media? Just pulling part of a quote to suit your argument? Back in the day, there was no interwebs so we don't even know how many of those guys were bad people/teammates. I will give you a few off the top of my head that would fit the bill of not great humans, not great teammates (looking out for themselves over the team) or at the very least selfish.....

Michael Irvin
OJ Simpson
Lawrence Taylor
Warren Sapp
Riggins
Hornung
Namath
Charles Haley
Our very own Doug Atkins was no saint

This is just a few. Who knows how some of these guys acted before we all knew every move they made.

There are guys in the baseball HOF who weren't good people or teammates.

I get your point. I don't even like TO, but you can't make up new criteria just bc you don't like someone.
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I don't think anyone is saying keep TO out because he was a crappy person though. I think the issue is how his on-field attitude and locker room presence affected his team, chemistry, and ultimately perhaps, wins and losses.

And I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it's a reality. And Peter King, a HOF voter who has voted for TO, has said as much, which was my point in quoting him.
 
#9,162
#9,162
LaagerVol said:
Don't leave out the "and crappy people in general" part of what you quoted. Are you a member of the media? Just pulling part of a quote to suit your argument? Back in the day, there was no interwebs so we don't even know how many of those guys were bad people/teammates. I will give you a few off the top of my head that would fit the bill of not great humans, not great teammates (looking out for themselves over the team) or at the very least selfish.....

Michael Irvin
OJ Simpson
Lawrence Taylor
Warren Sapp
Riggins
Hornung
Namath
Charles Haley
Our very own Doug Atkins was no saint

This is just a few. Who knows how some of these guys acted before we all knew every move they made.

There are guys in the baseball HOF who weren't good people or teammates.

I get your point. I don't even like TO, but you can't make up new criteria just bc you don't like someone.
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I'm just talking about being a bad teammate right now. Forget the other part.
 
#9,164
#9,164
LaagerVol said:
I think everyone knows WHY he hasn't been voted in, is it justified?? If this had always been the standard that would be one thing, but there are PLENTY of HOFers that were crappy teammates and crappy people in general. All of that gets sensationalized so much more these days.
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Did ALL of them get in first ballot? It's an honor, not a scientific process. Jerry Kramer was the best OG of his era and will probably never be inducted, simply because there are too many Packers. Art Monk held some records and attended his kids college graduations before he did Canton. Terrell having to delay requesting time off from his Costco job rates real low on the travesty meter. :)
 
#9,165
#9,165
cncchris33 said:
I don't think anyone is saying keep TO out because he was a crappy person though. I think the issue is how his on-field attitude and locker room presence affected his team, chemistry, and ultimately perhaps, wins and losses.

And I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it's a reality. And Peter King, a HOF voter who has voted for TO, has said as much, which was my point in quoting him.
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I think most of the voters are pretty open with the reasons why. He was on a team that went to a super bowl so. Like I said tho,I don't like him but I think it's disingenuous to use different criteria now.
 
#9,167
#9,167
butchna said:
Did ALL of them get in first ballot? It's an honor, not a scientific process. Jerry Kramer was the best OG of his era and will probably never be inducted, simply because there are too many Packers. Art Monk held some records and attended his kids college graduations before he did Canton. Terrell having to delay requesting time off from his Costco job rates real low on the travesty meter. :)
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lol I agree with that also. He has HOF numbers for sure but it probably serves him right to have to wait, even tho he still won't understand that it's his own fault. Some people can't accept responsibilty for their actions. It's always someone else' fault or someone mistreating them for no reason, I'm definitely not losing any sleep over it.
 
#9,168
#9,168
LaagerVol said:
I agree he was a bad teammate. Some of those guys I listed were also.
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Of those names you listed, I don't recall ANY that were considered "bad teammates". Bad characters maybe? Charles Haley was notable for showing off his hog during team meetings, which was weird and surely uncomfortable, but he was an acknowledged leader on both the 49er and Cowboy dynasties. John Riggins clashed with the Jets over contract and money...teammates loved him. Irvin? Scissorsgate wasn't his finest moment but McIver was ONE scrub teammate and the team had his back through ALL off his offfield hijinks, even appearances stickler Troy Aikman. Maybe I'm missing on one of these players but you need more than one to add up to "some". :dunno:
 
#9,169
#9,169
LaagerVol said:
lol I agree with that also. He has HOF numbers for sure but it probably serves him right to have to wait, even tho he still won't understand that it's his own fault. Some people can't accept responsibilty for their actions. It's always someone else' fault or someone mistreating them for no reason, I'm definitely not losing any sleep over it.
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I'd say he gets in this season. WITH Moss. This "no two WRs in the same HOF class" is silly fiction.
 
#9,170
#9,170
cncchris33 said:
I don't think anyone is saying keep TO out because he was a crappy person though. I think the issue is how his on-field attitude and locker room presence affected his team, chemistry, and ultimately perhaps, wins and losses.

And I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it's a reality. And Peter King, a HOF voter who has voted for TO, has said as much, which was my point in quoting him.
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I am a Cowboys fan but not necessarily a TO fan. The only way I would respond to this is he was a part of teams that went to the playoffs 7 times, which is about half his career. One ended in the NFC Championship Game, and one ended in the Super Bowl.

I was going back to see if the NFL voters put more of an emphasis on winning a title, and both LT and Jason Taylor were in this year's class. There are others in the last 10 years. Considering he is #2 in all-time receiving yards and #8 in all-time receptions, I think he deserves it.
 
#9,171
#9,171
butchna said:
Of those names you listed, I don't recall ANY that were considered "bad teammates". Bad characters maybe? Charles Haley was notable for showing off his hog during team meetings, which was weird and surely uncomfortable, but he was an acknowledged leader on both the 49er and Cowboy dynasties. John Riggins clashed with the Jets over contract and money...teammates loved him. Irvin? Scissorsgate wasn't his finest moment but McIver was ONE scrub teammate and the team had his back through ALL off his offfield hijinks, even appearances stickler Troy Aikman. Maybe I'm missing on one of these players but you need more than one to add up to "some". :dunno:
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Well it suits my "narrative" so I have to stick with it right? Isn't that what we do on here? Stick to our guns no matter what?

Either that or admit that I was at least partially wrong and that's not the VN way lol

I'm good with him having to sweat it, but I do think he should eventually be in.
 
#9,172
#9,172
LaagerVol said:
Well it suits my "narrative" so I have to stick with it right? Isn't that what we do on here? Stick to our guns no matter what?

Either that or admit that I was at least partially wrong and that's not the VN way lol

I'm good with him having to sweat it, but I do think he should eventually be in.
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Can respect that...at least with my wife. Admit you're wrong and it's like chumming shark infested waters. :lol:
 
#9,173
#9,173
VolGee4 said:
I am a Cowboys fan but not necessarily a TO fan. The only way I would respond to this is he was a part of teams that went to the playoffs 7 times, which is about half his career. One ended in the NFC Championship Game, and one ended in the Super Bowl.

I was going back to see if the NFL voters put more of an emphasis on winning a title, and both LT and Jason Taylor were in this year's class. There are others in the last 10 years. Considering he is #2 in all-time receiving yards and #8 in all-time receptions, I think he deserves it.
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Again, I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to be in. I'm just conveying the reason why he isn't, and backing that up with comments from an actual HOF voter. If he didn't have the rep of being such a bad teammate, he'd be in based solely on his accomplishments. Unfortunately, a large enough faction of voters have decided that his locker room antics and attitude contributed to hurting his team, and that, in their minds, neutralized some of his on-field credibility and success.
 
#9,174
#9,174
cncchris33 said:
Again, I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to be in. I'm just conveying the reason why he isn't, and backing that up with comments from an actual HOF voter. If he didn't have the rep of being such a bad teammate, he'd be in based solely on his accomplishments. Unfortunately, a large enough faction of voters have decided that his locker room antics and attitude contributed to hurting his team, and that, in their minds, neutralized some of his on-field credibility and success.
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I'm gonna come off as a jerk by saying this (what's new?) but I don't intend it that way.

Why do you keep saying this? Everyone knows WHY he didn't get voted in. It's common knowledge. The discussion is if that is fair.

I've come around to thinking it's fair to make him wait but let him in eventually. I guess that's how I've always felt, but I disagree with those that think he should never get in.
 
#9,175
#9,175
cncchris33 said:
Again, I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to be in. I'm just conveying the reason why he isn't, and backing that up with comments from an actual HOF voter. If he didn't have the rep of being such a bad teammate, he'd be in based solely on his accomplishments. Unfortunately, a large enough faction of voters have decided that his locker room antics and attitude contributed to hurting his team, and that, in their minds, neutralized some of his on-field credibility and success.
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Yea, I understand. I was just trying to provide a response to those voters. If his antics were so bad, he wouldn't have been on a playoff team every other year, and that includes Buffalo and Cincinnati.
 
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