Abortion Rights

#526
#526
LouderVol said:
also curious as to what makes something distinctly "brain activity" vs activity in a bunch of cells. as far as I have researched there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of difference taking into consideration those differences of time and a developing mind.
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The problem is that this concept of personhood is ambiguous and is a philosophical belief as opposed to an actual fact.

What we've discovered in the last 80 years is more than the entire history of man regarding the unborn. And, we're still learning. Interestingly, what we've learned has better revealed WHEN human life begins and how it develops.
 
#527
#527
Roustabout said:
Well, then your question is either incredibly flawed or you don't really believe it's WRONG. You simply don't prefer it. You can't smuggle in a word (wrong) and then rob it of any real meaning to try and make your point. I believe vanilla ice cream to be better than chocolate. And people who like chocolate are wrong.

The burden is not on us to prove objective moral values, as if there is some formula we can write out. The burden is for you to justify your use of the word wrong and ground it in any actual meaning. Because you are attempting to use the term in an objective way, and not in the way i am referencing ice cream flavor preference.

So, shame on you for demanding we demonstrate objective proof, when you are hijacking it for your own use.
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When did I attempt to use it in an object way?

Pretty sure I said "I believe". I believe slavery is wrong, just like I would bet close to 100% of us do.

You are the one that stated this:

Roustabout said:
So how did we ever correct the error of slavery?
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What does that mean and what are you inferring?
 
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#528
#528
Roustabout said:
Ok, let's argue on your terms.
An 8-12 week incubating human is a person? Prior to our scientific ability to recognize this, was that a person?
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Yes.

Roustabout said:
Is there potential scientific discovery that could cause us to redefine personhood? Right now the state of TN allows you to kill persons, based on your view. What are you doing to stop state sponsored murder?
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First question: Sure. But right now there is no scientific definition of personhood. I have my opinion. Yours seems to be at the point of conception, but I don't know because you won't answer.

Second question: Like what? Blow up a clinic? Take up arms? Protest? What are you currently doing?
 
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#529
#529
rjd970 said:
When did I attempt to use it in an object way?

Pretty sure I said "I believe". I believe slavery is wrong, just like I would bet close to 100% of us do.

You are the one that stated this:



What does that mean and what are you inferring?
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100%? ad populum? Listen, I'm glad you believe it's wrong.

I would challenge you to define wrong.
Are you saying slavery isn't your preference, but it's possible something could change your mind? Or that you might not like it, but if the majority supported it, you'd go along?

Or, are you saying you believe slavery (let's use chattell slavery as an example) to be immoral regardless of majority opinion.

If the former, then you are robbing the term 'wrong' of any real meaning. Not only that, but I have a feeling you see your belief on the issue as virtuous. In other words believing slavery to be wrong is BETTER than not.

Is a society that promotes slavery (the Democratic party actually promoted slavery as good for slaves) better or worse than one that doesn't? Was chattell slavery an error?
 
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#530
#530
rjd970 said:
Yes.



First question: Sure. But right now there is no scientific definition of personhood. I have my opinion. Yours seems to be at the point of conception, but I don't know because you won't answer.

Second question: Like what? Blow up a clinic? Take up arms? Protest? What are you currently doing?
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Because my position doesn't hinge on personhood, in the way you are saying. Yours does.
 
#531
#531
Roustabout said:
So, your BELIEF determines this notion of personhood?
And a newborn has a different level of that compared to a 12 week fetus. A 1 year old has a different level of that compared to a newborn. Slippery slope.
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Yes. When the hell have I said otherwise?

And I have already stated unequivocally that a 12 week fetus has all the same rights as a 30 year old man.

rjd970 said:
I'll give you and Roust what you want.

At 8-12 weeks of pregnancy we have something that absolutely has the same rights as a 30 year old man. There is no difference and both need to be protected.

Before that, it isn't a person and doesn't have those same rights.

As I've said before, if you think it is a person before that, I would like to hear it.
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#532
#532
rjd970 said:
Yes. When the hell have I said otherwise?

And I have already stated unequivocally that a 12 week fetus has all the same rights as a 30 year old man.
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So why is your belief right and the person that believes in abortion up to birth wrong?

So, a 12 week old fetus can vote, drive a car and buy beer?
 
#533
#533
Roustabout said:
100%? ad populum? Listen, I'm glad you believe it's wrong.

I would challenge you to define wrong.
Are you saying slavery isn't your preference, but it's possible something could change your mind? Or that you might not like it, but if the majority supported it, you'd go along?

Or, are you saying you believe slavery (let's use chattell slavery as an example) to be immoral regardless of majority opinion.

If the former, then you are robbing the term 'wrong' of any real meaning. Not only that, but I have a feeling you see your belief on the issue as virtuous. In other words believing slavery to be wrong is BETTER than not.

Is a society that promotes slavery (the Democratic party actually promoted slavery as good for slaves) better or worse than one that doesn't? Was chattell slavery an error?
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Of course I believe it is virtuous to believe slavery is wrong. I believe slavery to be wrong for a variety of reasons. The way I was raised, the culture I grew up in, the immorality of it when viewed in terms of human suffering and happiness, it's against the law.

Yes...I recognize that is subjective to my experiences, time, place, etc. If there is an objective reason I would like to hear it.

Why do you think/believe/know slavery is wrong?
 
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#534
#534
rjd970 said:
Of course I believe it is virtuous to believe slavery is wrong. I believe slavery to be wrong for a variety of reasons. The way I was raised, the culture I grew up in, the immorality of it when viewed in terms of human suffering and happiness, it's against the law.

Yes...I recognize that is subjective to my experiences, time, place, etc. If there is an objective reason I would like to hear it.

Why do you think/believe/know slavery is wrong?
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I can't believe you are oblivious to this. You keep doubling down and going circular. Slavery is wrong because it's immoral and it's immoral because it's wrong. And I know this caused I learned it good.

You are saying you were raised RIGHT.
You are saying the culture was RIGHT.
You keep smuggling in Objective truth and then denying it in the next breath.

If a person was raised to support slavery, and their culture supported it, and believe it to be morally justified then would their belief be correct?

How we come to know right and wrong isn't the same as whether right and wrong actually exist.
 
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#535
#535
Roustabout said:
So why is your belief right and the person that believes in abortion up to birth wrong?

So, a 12 week old fetus can vote, drive a car and buy beer?
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I've stated and will again, it starts with brain activity and the ability to react to stimuli, reason, feel pain, happiness, etc.

A 12-week old fetus has the same personhood rights as a 30 year old man. Which is obviously what we've been talking about.
 
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#536
#536
Roustabout said:
I can't believe you are oblivious to this. You keep doubling down and going circular. Slavery is wrong because it's immoral and it's immoral because it's wrong. And I know this caused I learned it good.

You are saying you were raised RIGHT.
You are saying the culture was RIGHT.
You keep smuggling in Objective truth and then denying it in the next breath.

If a person was raised to support slavery, and their culture supported it, and believe it to be morally justified then would their belief be correct?

How we come to know right and wrong isn't the same as whether right and wrong actually exist.
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I'm fully stating what I think.


Roustabout said:
If a person was raised to support slavery, and their culture supported it, and believe it to be morally justified then would their belief be correct?
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I don't think it would be correct.

Roustabout said:
You are saying you were raised RIGHT.
You are saying the culture was RIGHT.
You keep smuggling in Objective truth and then denying it in the next breath.
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I think I was raised right.


What objective truth am I smuggling? I'm very clearly stating what I think to be right.
 
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#537
#537
rjd970 said:
Yes...I recognize that is subjective to my experiences, time, place, etc. If there is an objective reason I would like to hear it.
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I'm just going to keep quoting this. I think it answers 90% of the questions I've been asked in the last hour.
 
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#538
#538
rjd970 said:
I'm just going to keep quoting this. I think it answers 90% of the questions I've been asked in the last hour.
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You've already given the reason.

You already believe in objective truth regarding morality. Your own answers betray you. Replacing 'believe' with 'think' is pretty f-n lazy.

You just don't like where this points so you suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
 
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#539
#539
Roustabout said:
You've already given the reason.

You already believe in objective truth regarding morality. Your own answers betray you. Replacing 'believe' with 'think' is pretty f-n lazy.

You just don't like where this points so you suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
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No, I don't. Show me where I stated I did.

There may be a post where I played along in a hypothetical with OC. But I don't.
 
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#540
#540
rjd970 said:
No, I don't. Show me where I stated I did.

There may be a post where I played along in a hypothetical with OC. But I don't.
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It's all over your post. You keep using words like RIGHT, WRONG, BETTER, etc. as if they really have objective truth to correspond to. Then you try to avoid this by saying that's what you think, or believe, not realizing how impotent that makes anything you actually believe. Honestly, it's embarrassing.

You're not even being honest with yourself. We're you raised to be honest?
 
#541
#541
Roustabout said:
It's all over your post. You keep using words like RIGHT, WRONG, BETTER, etc. as if they really have objective truth to correspond to. Then you try to avoid this by saying that's what you think, or believe, not realizing how impotent that makes anything you actually believe. Honestly, it's embarrassing.

You're not even being honest with yourself. We're you raised to be honest?
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Not once have I claimed anything I consider objectively right, wrong, or better. Not once. I’ve continually asked, in fact, what others think and their opinion. If that is impotent, then fine. I would love to hear what objective truths and the foundations for those truths make me objectively right or wrong.

What I’ve gotten in return is abject misrepresentations and absurdities (can a fetus vote and drink beer, being called a lap dog, etc) and I’ve not returned any kind of fire. I think I’ve handled this entire discussion in a pointedly more mature and calm fashion than others.
 
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#542
#542
rjd970 said:
Not once have I claimed anything I consider objectively right, wrong, or better. Not once. I’ve continually asked, in fact, what others think and their opinion. If that is impotent, then fine. I would love to hear what objective truths and the foundations for those truths make me objectively right or wrong.

What I’ve gotten in return is abject misrepresentations and absurdities (can a fetus vote and drink beer, being called a lap dog, etc) and I’ve not returned any kind of fire. I think I’ve handled this entire discussion in a pointedly more mature and calm fashion than others.
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I guess you were raised RIGHT.
 
#548
#548
I think he's clumsily trying to expose the inconsistency of two positions that are often held by the same person: animal rights based vegetarianism and preference-abortions as morally neutral. If animals have rights because they are sentient, then a fetus, once it can feel pain, should have the same rights.
 
#549
#549
Septic said:
Is abortion for sport a thing? Source of this poll?

Do you ever look behind the headlines?
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I would argue it is. people are recreationally having sex and babies appear. they have the abortion so they can continue to avoid responsibilities formed from their actions. I would say that is as much sport as hunting big game for a picture or a trophy.
 
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#550
#550
LouderVol said:
I would argue it is. people are recreationally having sex and babies appear. they have the abortion so they can continue to avoid responsibilities formed from their actions. I would say that is as much sport as hunting big game for a picture or a trophy.
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You're better than this dumbass argument. Renounce it and beg for forgiveness
 
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