ACC imploding???

[RDU VOL#14]

Are some of you guys wanting to add Clemson and FSU while wanting to drop Vandy or Mizzou thinking that way because it looks better for the conference? Every conference has a Vanderbilt. Everyone needs a Vandy or Northwestern. I don’t really understand the purpose of making the conference even more difficult than it already is. We don’t even need to add the top tier of the ACC to make the SEC the best conference, it is this year and will be even more so next year. Look at the 8 game schedule next year, it’s absurd how good it is each week. Everyone needs a bottom feeder, so why would you want to give that away for 1 of the best programs in the country over the past decade and for one that has won a National title in the past 10 years?

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

There is not a real "Pac" network.
Almost all people in the ACC footprint that have cable/TouTubeTV/SlingTV/Hulu+ etc pay for the ACC Network. Even if they don't want it and don't watch it. Same with SECNetwork and BigTen Network

That population difference is the reason the Big10 schools make more money than SEC schools. The Big10 also has strongly avoided adding new teams in states they already have a presence as they understand the premium TV business model. Until Texas , the SEC strictly followed this same gameplan as well. Texas needed to be added to get Oklahoma and Texas is a bit of an outlier state. Adding Miami or Florida State would not increase SEC TV money and it would especially not be possible to add both in an attempt to keep the B1G out of Florida. Adding Clemson would result in less TV money for the SEC but more money for the Big10.

Adding Missouri was a terrible idea for competitiveness but a great idea for revenue as Missouri's two major TV markets were included in for SEC Network contract consideration.

If the TV model changes, then the SEC could rush in the add FSU, Clemson, Miami, Louisville or even Memphis. But right now, the SEC member schools would lost revenue if those schools were added.

Without changes, here are the most likely expansion targets:

(1) North Carolina
(2) NC State
(3) Virginia Tech
(4) Virginia
(5) Pittsburgh
(6) Cincinnati
(7) Kansas
(8) West Virginia would crawl on hot coals on their testicles to join. VERY small market but would still get more money than Clemson.

The SEC has the power to elevate other schools to P5 status just because of their location. This would result in additional TV money and represent a hostile takeover in territory that did not want to join us. Consider?
(1) East Carolina / Charlotte
(2) Liberty / James Madison / ODU

It's all about the money, I believe any of those schools would be at least as competitive as Missouri after several seasons.

You're glossing over the fact that most folks on the west coast have ESPN and ESPN had a 250M deal with the Pac-12 when they added CO and UT.

That deal gave them about $20M/school and started around 2012-2013, somewhere in there.

Despite having a massive population, most of which had ESPN on your "subscription model" claim, the PAC couldn't get a new TV deal.

If it's all about subscriptions in the area and not about content, the PAC should've easily gotten a new ESPN deal, even after USC and UCLA left. It's not like all those households were suddenly going to lose PAC coverage because the B1G came to the area. They HAD PAC-12 on ESPN and still could not get a contract???? Why..... with your subscription model?

Your "subscription model" is only part of the equation. Content matters along with subscriptions, otherwise the heavily populated east and west coast subscriptions dwarf the SEC and B1G areas.

 

[Elhanan]

No need for another “tiger” in the conference.

UNC adds to basketball and FSU’s got the name recognition. Both should be easy football wins for us too.

 

[1974Vol]

No need for another “tiger” in the conference.

UNC adds to basketball and FSU’s got the name recognition. Both should be easy football wins for us too.

The expansion decisions are all revenue driven. The relative quality of the football programs is a secondary consideration. When adding schools, you do need a fan base to drive the media footprint and the price the SEC can ask for media rights. So, on a revenue basis North Carolina or one of the Virginia schools is more attractive because it adds a media footprint the SEC doesn't currently have. Clemson, FSU and Miami are in markets the SEC already has. I like that at least the current SEC leadership thinks in terms of keeping the "Southeastern" congruent states idea in tact. The Big 10 has become a bunch of hoc schools with nothing in common but the name. Most of the schools that have joined of late have hurt themselves competitively, and hurt their "brand". Nebraska is the foremost example. USC and UCLA will be hurt as well. No one will care about a USC schedule made of Indiana, Illinois, Northwestern, Maryland, Rutgers, etc. There's no history, no geographic connection, and there will be no enthusiasm for these games played before half empty stadiums and sorry TV ratings. Contrast that with Neyland when the Sooners and Baker Mayfield came to town. The TV package for a 16 team SEC will be as big or bigger than the one for a 24 team Big10, and the SEC will only have to split theirs 16 ways. The SEC ain't expanding unless the schools brought in more than "pay for themselves" in footprint and revenue stream. Both Texas and Oklahoma fill that bill.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

How about we take them all, and send TU, OK, A&M, Mizzou and maybe even Arky back to the big 12? Make the 'SE' part of 'SEC' mean something again?

 

[RDU VOL#14]

The expansion decisions are all revenue driven. The relative quality of the football programs is a secondary consideration. When adding schools, you do need a fan base to drive the media footprint and the price the SEC can ask for media rights. So, on a revenue basis North Carolina or one of the Virginia schools is more attractive because it adds a media footprint the SEC doesn't currently have. Clemson, FSU and Miami are in markets the SEC already has. I like that at least the current SEC leadership thinks in terms of keeping the "Southeastern" congruent states idea in tact. The Big 10 has become a bunch of hoc schools with nothing in common but the name. Most of the schools that have joined of late have hurt themselves competitively, and hurt their "brand". Nebraska is the foremost example. USC and UCLA will be hurt as well. No one will care about a USC schedule made of Indiana, Illinois, Northwestern, Maryland, Rutgers, etc. There's no history, no geographic connection, and there will be no enthusiasm for these games played before half empty stadiums and sorry TV ratings. Contrast that with Neyland when the Sooners and Baker Mayfield came to town. The TV package for a 16 team SEC will be as big or bigger than the one for a 24 team Big10, and the SEC will only have to split theirs 16 ways. The SEC ain't expanding unless the schools brought in more than "pay for themselves" in footprint and revenue stream. Both Texas and Oklahoma fill that bill.

I think something that is undefined in all of this is the value of the “brand”. How important is the brand versus expanding the tv footprint? Clemson vs UGA or Bama vs FSU is going to bring more eyeballs and subscribers nationally than UGA vs UNC or VT every time. At the same time you want that subscriber # up in Virginia. It already exists here in North Carolina. It seems to be a much different dynamic than when we added aTm and Mizzou.

 

[KriegerVOL]

There is not a real "Pac" network.
Almost all people in the ACC footprint that have cable/TouTubeTV/SlingTV/Hulu+ etc pay for the ACC Network. Even if they don't want it and don't watch it. Same with SECNetwork and BigTen Network

That population difference is the reason the Big10 schools make more money than SEC schools. The Big10 also has strongly avoided adding new teams in states they already have a presence as they understand the premium TV business model. Until Texas , the SEC strictly followed this same gameplan as well. Texas needed to be added to get Oklahoma and Texas is a bit of an outlier state. Adding Miami or Florida State would not increase SEC TV money and it would especially not be possible to add both in an attempt to keep the B1G out of Florida. Adding Clemson would result in less TV money for the SEC but more money for the Big10.

Adding Missouri was a terrible idea for competitiveness but a great idea for revenue as Missouri's two major TV markets were included in for SEC Network contract consideration.

If the TV model changes, then the SEC could rush in the add FSU, Clemson, Miami, Louisville or even Memphis. But right now, the SEC member schools would lost revenue if those schools were added.

Without changes, here are the most likely expansion targets:

(1) North Carolina
(2) NC State
(3) Virginia Tech
(4) Virginia
(5) Pittsburgh
(6) Cincinnati
(7) Kansas
(8) West Virginia would crawl on hot coals on their testicles to join. VERY small market but would still get more money than Clemson.

The SEC has the power to elevate other schools to P5 status just because of their location. This would result in additional TV money and represent a hostile takeover in territory that did not want to join us. Consider?
(1) East Carolina / Charlotte
(2) Liberty / James Madison / ODU

It's all about the money, I believe any of those schools would be at least as competitive as Missouri after several seasons.

Most of those markets do not care about college football, at all. But if they watch any sport at all they already have the network. That money is already coming in.

I honestly don't like any conference solidarity stuff, but at least the SEC is generally smart enough not to add a G5 team like the dead Big East, or the dead pac10ish, and the soon to be bereaved big12.

Actual football fans of schools that play football worth watching watch football games. After that are people that just want to see a good game and/or degenerate gamblers. All of which already pay for the SEC network... or pirate it

 

[KriegerVOL]

True, but State fans care more about football than Duke and Carolina.

Bless their hearts. They try so hard.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

Miami doesn’t add a new tv market???wow it’s the ONLY team in the acc that does.

Syracuse, BC, Pitt don't add new markets?

 

[Volador]

Didn't really expect FSU to get as many votes. They might be though the lowest hanging ripe fruit for the pickin'!

 

[RDU VOL#14]

 

[Noni]

This has been a very interesting and educational thread to read. Thanks all.

 

[Volador]

This has been a very interesting and educational thread to read. Thanks all.

Welcome

 

[volmanNC]

If you ask any NCSU fan, they think they belong in the SEC. NCSU would be like having another Kentucky in the conference.

Their mouth outruns their results, but they’ll occasionally come up with some decent years of football.

I know several NCSU fans and I agree they think the team is on par with the SEC teams, however they seem to think their academics are MUCH better than the typical SEC team (such as UT).

Being a UT grad, I certainly don't agree with either of these points!

 

[25vol]

I have to say I voted for Clemson and FSU but I really don’t think the SEC should expand any further. As of right now, we have about 8 teams that could seriously push for a National Title and with the expanded playoff we have at least 10 that could make the playoffs. We’re doing great! There’s no reason to chase more teams to strengthen the conference or make more money when we have so many great teams already that draw in millions. And for everyone saying we should drop Missouri and Vanderbilt, I agree with Missouri. They’re not a good team and culturally not a good fit either but I’m never going to kick out Vanderbilt. Yes they suck and in all likelihood that will never change, but they are a founding member. Our traditions are more important than money and it’s what sets us apart from the B10 or B12 chasing dollar signs on the other side of the country.

 

[BowlBrother85]

How about we take them all, and send TU, OK, A&M, Mizzou and maybe even Arky back to the big 12? Make the 'SE' part of 'SEC' mean something again?

That's being a little too wrapped up in a name ... There are about to be 18 schools in the Big Ten. LOL.

Also, for many years, the Atlanta Falcons were in the NFC West while the Phoenix/Arizona Cardinals were in the NFC East. What's in a name?

At least, the SEC is still geographically contiguous. The mapped layouts of the Big Ten and ACC are going to look ridiculous, and they will have a logistical nightmare on their hands during basketball season.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

How about we take them all, and send TU, OK, A&M, Mizzou and maybe even Arky back to the big 12? Make the 'SE' part of 'SEC' mean something again?

Depends on how you define "southeast."

---

The oldest-fashion definition would say "east" is anything east of the Mississippi River, and "south" is anything south of the Mason-Dixon line (the border between Pennyslvania and Maryland, more or less, extended west indefinitely).

By that old definition, Arkansas, Texas, A&M, Oklahoma, and Mizzou would definitely be out. LSU would barely be in, because the campus is on the east side of the river as it runs through Baton Rouge.

But those old definitions give us weird quirks like a school called "Northwestern" ... in Chicago. Because, you know, at the time it was in the northwestern part of the country. Heh.

No, this way of defining "southeast" may be a little too old to still have value.

---

Perhaps the best way to determine what's "southeast" is to think culturally. For instance, where is barbeque a real thing? Well, from North Carolina, across Tennessee, and on down to Texas and up to Kansas City. The four most famous truly distinct types of barbeque are "Carolina style," "Memphis style," "Texas brisket," and "Kansas City style." Of course, Alabama and Mississippi and Georgia and the panhandle of Florida, even Kentucky and Virginia fit in this definition nicely.

Not just based on food, of course, there's a whole country lifestyle shared across the south, as far west as Texas and Oklahoma. It's about how we dance, how we talk (anywhere with a twang counts, even if your twang is a little different from mine), how we spend Friday and Saturday nights (year round, not just during football season...but definitely INCLUDING football season), and what values we hold dear.

By that definition, everyone who is in the conference right now fits. And several ACC teams would as well (the Virginia schools, the North and South Carolina ones, Georgia Tech, FSU).

---

So I don't mind the idea of Texas and Oklahoma joining in. I wouldn't mind if one day FSU and Va Tech and Clemson and UNC and the North Carolina foursome did.

But by that metric, Miami doesn't fit. Nor Maryland. Nor any of the left coast schools currently scrambling for a home. We should only expand if it makes $$$ sense, of course, but also only if it make cultural sense.

We have a collective identity. We have clung to it just fine, thus far. We should continue to.

Go Vols!

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I know several NCSU fans and I agree they think the team is on par with the SEC teams, however they seem to think their academics are MUCH better than the typical SEC team (such as UT).

Being a UT grad, I certainly don't agree with either of these points!

Hmm, I never got that vibe from any of the NC State grads I worked with. From the UNC grads, absolutely, but not the NC State folks.

And rightfully so: they're ahead of some SEC schools but behind others. If they were in the SEC, they'd be ranked above the center of the pack, but not right at the top. Top SEC academic rankings go to Florida, Georgia, and A&M. NC State is below all of them.

Go Vols!

(NC State is #29 on the US News & World Report rankings for this past year; Tennessee is #53 ... of the 227 public universities ranked).

 

[SpookyAction]

I have been looking at media markets and it simply makes the case for UNC, NCST, VATECH, and UVA, by a lot.
Miami can't even sell out their stadium. Dooley level attendance in 22.

 

[stolitonic]

It appears that FSU has investigated some potential answers to the ACC buyout money.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/04/flo...aps-jpmorgan-to-find-potential-investors.html

So here's the thing that I do not understand.

FSU has to pay $120 million to exit the ACC and their rights are held until 2036, correct? Doesn't ESPN actually own the media rights and not the ACC?

Basically my point is that ESPN would most likely prefer FSU in the SEC. ESPN has the SEC and ACC. FSU moving to the SEC would be highly beneficial for ESPN financially. It's basically an ESPN on ESPN crime that would make the company a great deal more $.


I would sunrise that there are some serious backroom discussions between FSU and ESPN going on.

If ESPN signs off on it, wouldn't the $120 million be the only real obstacle?

This has been puzzling me for like two days.

 

[Other_Guy]

Um, why aren't you guys picking the terrible schools we know Tenn could beat even on down years?

 

[TNnative]

Bringing in more means a smaller percentage of the pie. Let them go independent. and bake their own.

 

[spyfish007]

Depends on how you define "southeast."

---

The oldest-fashion definition would say "east" is anything east of the Mississippi River, and "south" is anything south of the Mason-Dixon line (the border between Pennyslvania and Maryland, more or less, extended west indefinitely).

By that old definition, Arkansas, Texas, A&M, Oklahoma, and Mizzou would definitely be out. LSU would barely be in, because the campus is on the east side of the river as it runs through Baton Rouge.

But those old definitions give us weird quirks like a school called "Northwestern" ... in Chicago. Because, you know, at the time it was in the northwestern part of the country. Heh.

No, this way of defining "southeast" may be a little too old to still have value.

---

Perhaps the best way to determine what's "southeast" is to think culturally. For instance, where is barbeque a real thing? Well, from North Carolina, across Tennessee, and on down to Texas and up to Kansas City. The four most famous truly distinct types of barbeque are "Carolina style," "Memphis style," "Texas brisket," and "Kansas City style." Of course, Alabama and Mississippi and Georgia and the panhandle of Florida, even Kentucky and Virginia fit in this definition nicely.

Not just based on food, of course, there's a whole country lifestyle shared across the south, as far west as Texas and Oklahoma. It's about how we dance, how we talk (anywhere with a twang counts, even if your twang is a little different from mine), how we spend Friday and Saturday nights (year round, not just during football season...but definitely INCLUDING football season), and what values we hold dear.

By that definition, everyone who is in the conference right now fits. And several ACC teams would as well (the Virginia schools, the North and South Carolina ones, Georgia Tech, FSU).

---

So I don't mind the idea of Texas and Oklahoma joining in. I wouldn't mind if one day FSU and Va Tech and Clemson and UNC and the North Carolina foursome did.

But by that metric, Miami doesn't fit. Nor Maryland. Nor any of the left coast schools currently scrambling for a home. We should only expand if it makes $$$ sense, of course, but also only if it make cultural sense.

We have a collective identity. We have clung to it just fine, thus far. We should continue to.

Go Vols!

I have a real simple definition.

Can I go into a restaurant and order sweet tea without them pointing at the sugar packets on the table or just plain saying we have ice tea like what else is there??!!

 

[Volunteer1950]

Reading through this thread, I think many are making the mistake of just looking at the quality of the school's sports programs only. In today's college sports, it comes down to money - specifically TV markets and viewers. That's kind of the Big Ten strategy right now. I read that with the addition of Oregon and Washington, they'll have 50 to 51% of CF eyeballs in 2024 and will be on TV from the 1st game in the morning-early afternoon to the last game on the West Coast late in the evening. That's where that massive payout of $80 to 100 million per school is coming from.

So I guess what we need to look at - before admitting a team into the SEC is how much money they could contribute (eyeballs) and not drain our current payout per school

 

[dobre_shunka]

How about we take them all, and send TU, OK, A&M, Mizzou and maybe even Arky back to the big 12? Make the 'SE' part of 'SEC' mean something again?

Not to get all technical, but the geographic center of the contiguous US is in north central Kansas. Only Austin is outside (and just barely) of southeastern quadrant.