Active Shooter at High School in Parkland, FL

#176
#176
utvolpj said:
Israel also has mandatory military service and homogeneous population. Are we just trading freedoms at this point?
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All I'm talking about is a proven method for hardening a potential target. It works. That and nothing more. Stop responding to something I didn't say.


bignewt said:
In the broadest strokes you have Israel where every single person has the same set of ideals, are raised to value self preservation and live in constant awareness of a singular threat.

The US a melting pot with millions and millions of people containing multiple sets of ideals, values and living anywhere in a state of complete complacency to the world is ending tomorrow.

Yeah you're right should work the same in both countries.
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Again, all we're talking about here is ways to make a school a hard target. A proven method is already out there. What is it with the "goal post moving" around here?


bignewt said:
Do you put the same ABS on a sedan you do a bus?
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And finally this one...the technology is the same. All that changes is the programming and components. Now, swap "technology" for "tactics", and swap "programming" and "components" for "training" and "personnel/equipment".


Yep...same.
 
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#177
#177
GreyWolf1129 said:
All I'm talking about is a proven method for hardening a potential target. It works. That and nothing more. Stop responding to something I didn't say.





Again, all we're talking about here is ways to make a school a hard target. A proven method is already out there. What is it with the "goal post moving" around here?





And finally this one...the technology is the same. All that changes is the programming and components. Now, swap "technology" for "tactics", and swap "programming" and "components" for "training" and "personnel/equipment".


Yep...same.
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All I am saying is that Israel is a police state by necessity. It has a populance that considers defense the #1 priority. That will never work in the U.S.

Its akin to saying they have universal healthcare in Sweden, that should work here...where the country is 50 times bigger, already contains a large welfare state and most of the population is either elderly or obese.

btw I friggin' hate that goal post term. Just debate, saying that is a cop out.
 
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#178
#178
bignewt said:
All I am saying is that Israel is a police state by necessity. It has a populance that considers defense the #1 priority. That will never work in the U.S.

Its akin to saying they have universal healthcare in Sweden, that should work here...where the country is 50 times bigger, already contains a large welfare state and most of the population is either elderly or obese.

btw I friggin' hate that goal post term. Just debate, saying that is a cop out.
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Agreed, agreed, and agreed.


And here's what I hate: In the end, there will be a lot of talk (check); finger-pointing (check); blame-assigning (check); more useless legislation (yep); unworkable or unrealistic solutions (ditto); and when it's all said and done nothing of substance will have been done.


We've been here before. I'm an advocate for immediate, proven, aggressive measures to protect our kids. If I'm being "too tough", maybe it's because they can't protect themselves. Maybe it's time for a sheepdog with some teeth.


Thanks for the mature response. We need more of that around here, IMO. Including me sometimes.
 
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#179
#179
GreyWolf1129 said:
Agreed, agreed, and agreed.


And here's what I hate: In the end, there will be a lot of talk (check); finger-pointing (check); blame-assigning (check); more useless legislation (yep); unworkable or unrealistic solutions (ditto); and when it's all said and done nothing of substance will have been done.


We've been here before. I'm an advocate for immediate, proven, aggressive measures to protect our kids. If I'm being "too tough", maybe it's because they can't protect themselves. Maybe it's time for a sheepdog with some teeth.


Thanks for the mature response. We need more of that around here, IMO. Including me sometimes.
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I can definitely agree it will be a bunch of talking heads and at the end we will wind up with the bs status quo-and that is because of a much larger problem: our stagnated two party political system...but that is a discussion for another day.
 
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#181
#181
crusse10 said:
I don't see any way that kids won't figure out who is carrying. Also, that has nothing to do with the potential snapping of the teacher with access to the weapon.
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With regard to one of your previous posts I forgot to comment on. The guy in Parkland bought his weapon legally from a store and not a gun show.

What are you talking about? Now a teacher is going to snap and start shooting kids? Lol

Seriously though if you think about it there are already real teachers out there who have a conceal carry permit they just aren't allowed to legally bring it into school. Arming teachers isn't something that's such an outlandish idea.
 
#182
#182
Coug said:
With regard to one of your previous posts I forgot to comment on. The guy in Parkland bought his weapon legally from a store and not a gun show.

What are you talking about? Now a teacher is going to snap and start shooting kids? Lol

Seriously though if you think about it there are already real teachers out there who have a conceal carry permit they just aren't allowed to legally bring it into school. Arming teachers isn't something that's such an outlandish idea.
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I think the conception is that every teacher will be armed regardless of skill level. I don't think anyone is suggesting that all teachers must be carrying. There are teachers that I'm sure most of us wouldn't want anywhere near a gun due to skill level and competence to handle a firearm. But you've hit the nail on the head, some teachers are competent and skilled and carry all the time outside of the classroom. I see nothing wrong with letting them carry concealed. The problem that I see is identifying these people and making sure they have the skill and competency to carry in the school.
 
#183
#183
InVOLuntary said:
I think the conception is that every teacher will be armed regardless of skill level. I don't think anyone is suggesting that all teachers must be carrying. There are teachers that I'm sure most of us wouldn't want anywhere near a gun due to skill level and competence to handle a firearm. But you've hit the nail on the head, some teachers are competent and skilled and carry all the time outside of the classroom. I see nothing wrong with letting them carry concealed. The problem that I see is identifying these people and making sure they have the skill and competency to carry in the school.
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Also will they be able to act in an actual gunfight? Will they miss and kill an innocent student? And lastly...students could either steal or overpower a teacher and take their gun...unleashing a whole new set of issues.
 
#184
#184
bignewt said:
Also will they be able to act in an actual gunfight? Will they miss and kill an innocent student? And lastly...students could either steal or overpower a teacher and take their gun...unleashing a whole new set of issues.
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All those are legitimate questions. The student would have to know which teachers were armed if their goal was to take the weapon. I think most would use the gun as a last resort. There was a video posted over in the political forum. It showed a mother and a daughter being robbed by a guy with a sawed off shotgun. They let the robber take the money and he appeared to leave. They took a defensive position behind the counter on the floor and grabbed a revolver. Thee gunman returns and finds them behind the counter. As he raises his gun she points hers and closes her eyes and starts pulling the trigger. You could tell she wasn't skilled or composed but it was her or the gunman at this point. He hits him and then runs out. Evidently he gets angry and returns to get revenge. The mother and the gunman set into a physical altercation and wrestles the gun away but during the struggle the daughter retrieves another handgun. While struggling with the mom the daughter shoots him. It was a very dangerous time to take the shot as it could have easily hit the mother. The gunman gets the gun away but it must have been empty, I guess that's why the mother didn't shoot when he came back. The guy was shot four times but managed to survive. The ladies escaped after the daughter got her shot off. My point in telling this is that neither of the women were skilled but as a life or death situation they were able to successfully defend themselves with a firearm. I realize this is just one case.

Edit: after watching another video I hadn't seen before, it appears the women locked the door where he could not leave.

[youtube]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UKZ55m2KBaY[/youtube]


I don't know that arming teachers is the answer but having the threat of an armed teacher has to be a concern for a shooter.
 
#185
#185
If your going to arm teachers (which I'm in favor of) then they HAVE to be properly trained. They should be required to attend classes for active shooters and have to qualify each year.
 
#187
#187
InVOLuntary said:
I agree and it shouldn't be mandatory to carry.
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Agree, you can't force someone to carry. Extra pay if they choose too however and put them thru intense simulation training. Gotta know if they could actually pull the trigger on a student or a kid they know well in the situation.
 
#189
#189
Coug said:
With regard to one of your previous posts I forgot to comment on. The guy in Parkland bought his weapon legally from a store and not a gun show.

What are you talking about? Now a teacher is going to snap and start shooting kids? Lol

Seriously though if you think about it there are already real teachers out there who have a conceal carry permit they just aren't allowed to legally bring it into school. Arming teachers isn't something that's such an outlandish idea.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's far-fetched to think a teacher could snap and grab the gun in their room and use it, either on students or other teachers. I think that simply by the gun not being there, the impulse to pick it up and make an immediate decision will not be acted upon.

Again, many of these mass shooters are legally purchasing firearms and living lives as law-abiding citizens until they aim those guns at others and start pulling the trigger.

As for the way in which he bought his gun compared to what I was saying, it was just me listing off one way (in some cases the easiest way) to quickly purchase a weapon. It doesn't matter how he got the gun. What matters is that he was legally able to get the gun.

Also, if he didn't have a gun with the strength that that gun had, it's possible that the overmatched cop who didn't run in would have gone in to confront the shooter. As it was, he'd have just run in to his death and not had much of a chance at stopping the kid.
 
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#192
#192
crusse10 said:
Where did I say that I want armed cops in schools?
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Schools need armed security and I see nothing wrong with allowing trained teachers who are willing carry in school. Heck, let the standards be similar to what airline pilots abide by.
 
#193
#193
crusse10 said:
I don't think it's far-fetched to think a teacher could snap and grab the gun in their room and use it, either on students or other teachers. I think that simply by the gun not being there, the impulse to pick it up and make an immediate decision will not be acted upon.

Again, many of these mass shooters are legally purchasing firearms and living lives as law-abiding citizens until they aim those guns at others and start pulling the trigger.

As for the way in which he bought his gun compared to what I was saying, it was just me listing off one way (in some cases the easiest way) to quickly purchase a weapon. It doesn't matter how he got the gun. What matters is that he was legally able to get the gun.

Also, if he didn't have a gun with the strength that that gun had, it's possible that the overmatched cop who didn't run in would have gone in to confront the shooter. As it was, he'd have just run in to his death and not had much of a chance at stopping the kid.
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Do you want to overturn the 2nd..yes or no?
 
#194
#194
crusse10 said:
Also, if he didn't have a gun with the strength that that gun had, it's possible that the overmatched cop who didn't run in would have gone in to confront the shooter. As it was, he'd have just run in to his death and not had much of a chance at stopping the kid.
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Overmatched in what way? He had a great chance to make a difference in the close quarters if he wasn't too scared to do the job he chose (and will gladly collect a pension from). Guess protecting and serving HS kids being murdered wasn't covered in the academy
 
#195
#195
Ulysees E. McGill said:
Do you want to overturn the 2nd..yes or no?
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I think the Second Amendment received the same treatment that the NFL gave to catches. In the past, with the same rules, common sense was used. Then the NRA changed its course back in the 70s (I think?) and made everything very political. It went from being an organization focused on safety to rewriting what the word safety meant.

The Second Amendment is there so that way you have the right to protect yourself and the intended freedom of fellow Americans from a tyrannical government. Not to protect yourself from fellow citizens. It never even says that "arms" are being protected for hunting.

I have no problem with the way the Second Amendment was interpreted until the 1970s. I have a problem with the way it's interpreted now, because of the refocusing of the NRA.

I want Americans to start using common sense regarding the Second Amendment instead of whatever the hell we're doing now.
 
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#196
#196
utvolpj said:
Overmatched in what way? He had a great chance to make a difference in the close quarters if he wasn't too scared to do the job he chose (and will gladly collect a pension from). Guess protecting and serving HS kids being murdered wasn't covered in the academy
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If the shooter only had a handgun in the school, I am guessing that the cop would have been more likely to go in. Do I know that? No. But I am assuming that. Going into a school with an active shooter with basically no information of what he's armed with or what room he's in, by yourself, is just asking to get killed without even getting a shot off.
 
#197
#197
crusse10 said:
If the shooter only had a handgun in the school, I am guessing that the cop would have been more likely to go in. Do I know that? No. But I am assuming that. Going into a school with an active shooter with basically no information of what he's armed with or what room he's in, by yourself, is just asking to get killed without even getting a shot off.
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Better to just let those HS kids try and figure it out instead of 4 trained police officers huh? They had plenty of firepower at their disposal but chose to not use it. Your "only have a handgun" excuse is nonsense
 
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#198
#198
utvolpj said:
Better to just let those HS kids try and figure it out instead of 4 trained police officers huh? They had plenty of firepower at their disposal but chose to not use it. Your "only have a handgun" excuse is nonsense
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I thought there was 1 cop who waited outside. At least that was the last bit of info I had heard.

And nonsense is our idiot president saying that he believes he'd have run in there without a weapon.
 
#199
#199
crusse10 said:
I thought there was 1 cop who waited outside. At least that was the last bit of info I had heard.
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Even that is too many. He failed to do what he is paid for and allowed children to die because of it. The football coach had more guts
 
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