Alabama football: At least five players have reportedly tested positive for the coronavirus

[sjt18]

Is the death reporting for Corona accurate though? Given how they have been reporting the deaths? Didn't the CDC state on their website that someone who had symptoms of covid at time of death were counted even if they didn't test positive?

Where it would tend to increase death count, CDC has been clear with direction. Where it might diminish death counts, they've been unclear.

I think they do allow significant latitude in a case like you suggest though Covid symptoms are indicative of a wide range of sicknesses and allergies. However, sometimes they look at lung damage. Even then Covid isn't the only cause for that damage.

The much large problem IMO is counting things as Covid deaths when something else was the primary cause. For instance, if someone has leukemia with 6 months to live... they should not be counted as a Covid death even if Covid contributes to them dying in only 4 months.

 

[sjt18]

I was thinking at one time I read on the CDCs site that you didn't even have to test postive at time of death, that If you just showed covid symptoms it was counted as covid.

And that isn't totally illegitimate. We trust doctors to make those kinds of judgments all the time. I'm more concerned with the systematic overcounting directed by top officials and its impact on public perception.

 

[Illinoisvolfan2]

I’d go to a packed Neyland tomorrow to see the Vols. Screw this. And I’m 64.

 

[sjt18]

False recordings have likely happened, though how many is up for debate. The counter to that is health experts also believe there are bunch of unconfirmed COVID deaths as well, from people dying at home due to COVID. It's possible these two things largely cancel each other out.

It is very likely those two things do.

What is not cancelled out is the blanket labeling of every "Covid positive" death as a Covid death. In a buried page on the CDC website I found that only 7% of the deaths being called "Covid" had Covid alone as the cause of death. Granted that is not the full impact of the virus. But CDC has the information to tell us how many have died FROM Covid as the primary cause, how many had Covid as a secondary contributing cause, and those who died from something else with Covid as a minor factor or purely incidental to death.

The video I posted above ASSURES massive overcounting.

 

[Carp]

CDC's first data based projection was .4% of confirmed cases with a (too low) estimate of 35% asymptomatic cases... .26% infection mortality rate.

And again... this all has to be qualified by the way Covid-19 deaths are being counted. You do not have to die from Covid-19 to be counted in their total. You just have to die while Covid-19 positive. That may somehow be useful to those attempting to track the virus but it is VERY misleading when used to calculate a mortality rate that is naturally and necessarily compared to the flu for severity. We simply have not put the effort or discipline into counting flu deaths that way. If we did... the death totals would double or triple.

According to Birx's directive, George Floyd should be counted as a Covid death. He clearly died from something else but was supposedly Covid-19 positive when he died.

For one, John Hopkins most recent studies disagree with the CDC. They believe the IFR to be between .5%-1%.

The 2nd part of post simply isn't true, or at least, is extremely misleading.

 

[sjt18]

I’d go to a packed Neyland tomorrow to see the Vols. Screw this. And I’m 64.

I'll go with you. I have some health concerns but am basically healthy.

Too many are willing to stop living for fear of dying.... and in this case a very, very, very low risk of dying.

 

[Carp]

It is very likely those two things do.

What is not cancelled out is the blanket labeling of every "Covid positive" death as a Covid death. In a buried page on the CDC website I found that only 7% of the deaths being called "Covid" had Covid alone as the cause of death. Granted that is not the full impact of the virus. But CDC has the information to tell us how many have died FROM Covid as the primary cause, how many had Covid as a secondary contributing cause, and those who died from something else with Covid as a minor factor or purely incidental to death.

The video I posted above ASSURES massive overcounting.

That really isn't all that relevant. If you die of a heart attack while on a ventilator due to COVID symptoms, COVID is the reason you died. It may not be specifically what killed you, but you would likely be alive had you not been exposed to COVID. Arguing otherwise is silly.

 

[tennrich1]

SURELY we all are sharp enough to know that upticks in positive test are a direct correlation to the amount of testing now being done? A friend recently told me on two separate days he saw a line probably a 1/4 mile long waiting to be tested in a certain neighborhood. If we tested EVERYONE for cancer today....there would be such an increase in CANCER that we would never leave our homes. At some point COMMON SENSE must return!!! Stay diligent? Of course! Be safe? Absolutely! But these figures are so messed up no one knows the truth about it. OBVIOUSLY we have to move on...and completely this has turned into a political massacre like everything else these days and the media absolutely CAN NOT BE TRUSTED AT ALL! To convince me of an issue NEVER QUOTE TO ME WHAT YOU HEARD ON THE DAILY NEWS!!

 

[BigOrangeFanatic]

And that isn't totally illegitimate. We trust doctors to make those kinds of judgments all the time. I'm more concerned with the systematic overcounting directed by top officials and its impact on public perception.

Doctors have also come out and stated that they have been pressured to add covid as the cause of death too.

 

[Carp]

SURELY we all are sharp enough to know that upticks in positive test are a direct correlation to the amount of testing now being done? A friend recently told me on two separate days he saw a line probably a 1/4 mile long waiting to be tested in a certain neighborhood. If we tested EVERYONE for cancer today....there would be such an increase in CANCER that we would never leave our homes. At some point COMMON SENSE must return!!! Stay diligent? Of course! Be safe? Absolutely! But these figures are so messed up no one knows the truth about it. OBVIOUSLY we have to move on...and completely this has turned into a political massacre like everything else these days and the media absolutely CAN NOT BE TRUSTED AT ALL! To convince me of an issue NEVER QUOTE TO ME WHAT YOU HEARD ON THE DAILY NEWS!!

The total amount of infected isn't quite as important as the percentage of tests coming back positive. Suppose you tests 1,000 people this week and 10% (100 people) come back positive. Next week you test 10,000 people and 5% (500 people) come back positive. You see a higher number of positives, but the rate of positive tests went down.

 

[BigOrangeFanatic]

That really isn't all that relevant. If you die of a heart attack while on a ventilator due to COVID symptoms, COVID is the reason you died. It may not be specifically what killed you, but you would likely be alive had you not been exposed to COVID. Arguing otherwise is silly.

You could have also died of a heart attack because your cholesterol levels were through the roof, and it just so happen you test positive at the time for covid. What was the more likely cause of death?

If your cholesterol was great and you were otherwise in good health, you probably would fight off the covid, statistics show.

 

[sjt18]

For one, John Hopkins most recent studies disagree with the CDC. They believe the IFR to be between .5%-1%.

Remains to be seen but simply based on the number of claimed deaths and the LIKELY actual case number... they're still high. Even in NY it was estimated that there are 10 actual infections for every reported infection. Across the country, it is mostly those who have symptoms or are part of a trace that get tested. The true measure here will be an effective and statistically valid antibody survey.

It is also significant that this is a novel virus for which we started with no herd immunity. This IFR should continue to fall as antibodies become more widespread. Without that antibody survey, it is near impossible to know where we are in that curve.

The 2nd part of post simply isn't true, or at least, is extremely misleading.

You saying so and desiring not to believe it... doesn't make it untrue or misleading.

Birx states that they are taking a more "liberal" approach to counting Covid deaths.


How that is interpreted by Illinois and others.


It doesn't help that there's extra money being dangled to list Covid as a cause of death.

Even in a narrowly applied court ruling in Colorado, about 1/3 of their claimed deaths had to be re-labeled for clarity. Then you have numerous anecdotes from medical professionals saying they're under pressure to list Covid even when they do not believe it is a contributing cause.

Comorbidities
Table 4 shows the types of health conditions and contributing causes mentioned in conjunction with deaths involving coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). For 7% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.5 additional conditions or causes per death. The number of deaths with each condition or cause is shown for all deaths and by age groups.

Source: COVID-19 Provisional Counts - Weekly Updates by Select Demographic and Geographic Characteristics

 

[Carp]

You could have also died of a heart attack because your cholesterol levels were through the roof, and it just so happen you test positive at the time for covid. What was the more likely cause of death?

If your cholesterol was great and you were otherwise in good health, you probably would fight off the covid, statistics show.

Were you also experiencing COVID symptoms at the time of the heart attack? That's the whole point of saying people who are old and immune supressed are more likely to die from COVID. If someone with heart disease experiences fever and shortness of breath and other symptoms from COVID, there is a good chance they will die. They could have died either way with heart disease, but quite clearly the symptoms of COVID are what exasperated it. The odds are if they were not infected, they would not have experienced the symptoms that led to their heart attack.

 

[sjt18]

That really isn't all that relevant. If you die of a heart attack while on a ventilator due to COVID symptoms, COVID is the reason you died. It may not be specifically what killed you, but you would likely be alive had you not been exposed to COVID. Arguing otherwise is silly.

No. It isn't convenient to what you would prefer to believe for some reason. It is completely relevant.

In the case you describe, Covid would clearly be a contributing factor to the death. However if an asymptomatic Covid positive heart disease patient dies of a heart attack... that is also being counted as a Covid death.

Watch the videos above... particularly the one from Illinois. She literally says that deaths "CLEARLY" from another cause are to be counted as Covid deaths.

 

[JohnWardForever]

Alabama football: At least five players have reportedly tested positive for the coronavirus

This is why fans in stands anytime soon is absurd.

99% Recovery rate. Yeah I see you point. For the 1,000th time, TAKE TEMPS AT THE GATES. If you are positive you WILL have an elevated temp. 100%. Have you not seen the temp takers in S korea? China? If it's OK to go to a crowded beach, or PROTEST, it's ok to attend a game. Temps Temps Temps. If positive, TREAT. Aspirin (prevent blood clotting) , Quinine & Zinc. The Establishment wants you very scared. They succeeded.

 

[Ashevolle]

But protests are okay right?

You have a problem with the constitutional right to assembly?

 

[sjt18]

Were you experiencing COVID symptoms? That's the whole point of saying people who are old and immune supressed are more likely to die from COVID. If someone with heart disease experiences fever and shortness of breath, there is a good chance they will die. They could have died either way with heart disease, but quite clearly the symptoms of COVID are what exasperated it.

So why not be clear with the reporting so that people aren't deceived and unnecessarily made to fear?

Covid caused death
Covid as comorbidity
Covid incidental to death

 

[84Volfan]

You have a problem with the constitutional right to assembly?

Another gung-ho poster where my point flew right over your head.

 

[JohnWardForever]

Were you experiencing COVID symptoms? That's the whole point of saying people who are old and immune supressed are more likely to die from COVID. If someone with heart disease experiences fever and shortness of breath, there is a good chance they will die. They could have died either way with heart disease, but quite clearly the symptoms of COVID are what exasperated it.

One thing. Quinine & Zinc. Cured a 95 year old Man, who had no reason to fabricate. The suppression of this treatment by the Left is AGENDA Driven, too CHEAP !

 

[Carp]

So why not be clear with the reporting so that people aren't deceived and unnecessarily made to fear?

Covid caused death
Covid as comorbidity
Covid incidental to death

I haven't read too much into it, but perhaps that has simply been their process for awhile. From what I gather, they do reclassify many of these type of things at the end of the year, which is why you see Florida showing 5k pneumonia deaths currently despite an average of 900 over the last several years.

 

[sjt18]

@Carp

On undercounting of flu deaths compared to Covid deaths:

CDC Novel H1N1 Flu | CDC Estimates of 2009 H1N1 Influenza Cases, Hospitalizations and Deaths in the United States

Sorry. Here's the relevant quote so you don't have to look for it:

Under-Counting of Flu-Related Deaths
CDC does not know exactly how many people die from seasonal flu each year. There are several reasons for this:

• • First, states are not required to report individual seasonal flu cases or deaths of people older than 18 years of age to CDC.
  • Second, seasonal influenza is infrequently listed on death certificates of people who die from flu-related complications.
  • Third, many seasonal flu-related deaths occur one or two weeks after a person’s initial infection, either because the person may develop a secondary bacterial co-infection (such as a staph infection) or because seasonal influenza can aggravate an existing chronic illness (such as congestive heart failure or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease).
  • Also, most people who die from seasonal flu-related complications are not tested for flu, or they seek medical care later in their illness when seasonal influenza can no longer be detected from respiratory samples. Influenza tests are most likely to detect influenza if performed soon after onset of illness.
  • For these reasons, many flu-related deaths may not be recorded on death certificates.

These are some of the reasons that CDC and other public health agencies in the United States and other countries use statistical models to estimate the annual number of seasonal flu-related deaths. (Flu deaths in children were made a nationally notifiable condition in 2004, and since then, states have reported flu-related child deaths in the United States through the Influenza Associated Pediatric Mortality Surveillance System).

 

[vol9799]

I do respect your opinion but pneumonia shouldn’t even be in this conversation as we discuss airborne viruses that can be transmitted person to person.

Look, this is a hell of a conundrum. If you’re in your 20s and have very low risk of developing fatal complications then congratulations. But, there should at least be an understanding of those who aren’t. More people have died of this virus in the US inThe last 3 months than have died from the flu in the last 3 years combined. It’s much more contagious and thus more deadly. Anyone pretending otherwise either has a bad news source or is knowingly misleading people.

Just google “Flu deaths in US” and pick a credible site like John’s Hopkins.. and notice a flu season is 10 months long. This thing is raging through society in just 3 months - and that’s with state lockdowns. Imagine the death toll has everyone continued to gather.

On the other hand, I get the economic issues. I pray there is an end soon as those without work are suffering. But, in the end, I personally must protect my family by making the right choices.

I certainly respect your decision for your family. That's part of my argument against shutting things down, everyone should be able to make their own decisions based on their risk tolerance and understanding of the facts.

This is all new and the problem with trying to reference experts is that there are none currently. No one knows enough to speak authoritatively. With the deaths being attributed to CV regardless of what other issues of causation were present (see Colorado admission) we cannot even rely on that data being accurate. Because of that, I think folks should have a choice rather than having that taken away from them by folks trying to be experts and working from incomplete or flawed data at national or state levels.

Those who are concerned with the risks they face should be able to make their decisions. Those who are not overly concerned should be able to make theirs. So far, we've all had a bunch of politicians, special interest lobbies and research medical types making decisions for all of us without any reliable data. We see how well that's working...

 

[sjt18]

I haven't read too much into it, but perhaps that has simply been their process for awhile. From what I gather, they do reclassify many of these type of things at the end of the year, which is why you see Florida showing 5k pneumonia deaths currently despite an average of 900 over the last several years.

I am actually not saying that the way they are counting may not be of some scientific value. What I AM saying is that it has created a false narrative as presented by Fauci, Birx, the media, and others. And Fauci in particular seems very satisfied with the amount of fear they've evoked since it enables them to impose behavior restrictions on people to "play it safe"... when those restrictions are unlikely to be necessary or effective.

Regardless, the natural comparison for us is to compare to the flu to see how dangerous or severe Covid-19 is. I don't think you can deny based on what I've posted that the flu is very clearly being undercounted by very large proportions IF the Covid-19 counts are valid.

There is no way you can say that the scenario offered by Dr Ezike is legitimate. If someone is in hospice dying of cancer and happens to get Covid-19... they should NOT be counted as a Covid death.... but they are at least in some states/locations.

 

[sjt18]

I do respect your opinion but pneumonia shouldn’t even be in this conversation as we discuss airborne viruses that can be transmitted person to person.

Look, this is a hell of a conundrum. If you’re in your 20s and have very low risk of developing fatal complications then congratulations. But, there should at least be an understanding of those who aren’t. More people have died of this virus in the US inThe last 3 months than have died from the flu in the last 3 years combined. It’s much more contagious and thus more deadly. Anyone pretending otherwise either has a bad news source or is knowingly misleading people.

You are simply wrong. I posted information above demonstrating that Covid-19 is being overcounted while the flu is significantly undercounted by comparison.

If we were counting flu related deaths the way we're counting Covid related deaths then we would have well over 100K every year in spite of having vaccines and treatments.

My sources... are the horses' mouths.

Just google “Flu deaths in US” and pick a credible site like John’s Hopkins.. and notice a flu season is 10 months long. This thing is raging through society in just 3 months - and that’s with state lockdowns. Imagine the death toll has everyone continued to gather.

So if you pour a gallon of water into a bucket at .5 gal/min or 1 gal/min... how much water ends up in the bucket? Spreading deaths over 12 months instead of 6 does not save lives. It may in fact inhibit herd immunity while weakening immune systems due to "sheltering" and create more Covid infections and deaths.

The ONLY legitimate argument ever made for the shutdowns was the possibility that medical resources could be overwhelmed... and that never came close to occurring. Not even in NY.

The lockdowns have not proven effective at preventing the spread. Looking around the world there is no direct correlation between deaths and the aggressiveness of national lockdown policies. Japan really blows a hole in that notion. They did not aggressively lock down. They apparently quarantined symptomatic cases. They are a very densely populated country with Tokyo larger and denser than NYC. Japan currently has under 17K cases and under 1000 deaths.

It will take years and comparative studies with other national responses and pandemics to know if they even slowed the spread. It is unlikely that even a single death was prevented though you might argue that a different person died from Covid later than would have died earlier. In the end, you will very likely see the lockdowns very "quietly" discredited. It won't get the news coverage that the Covid hysteria has.

The social distancing and lockdowns deployed... have NEVER been studied or peer reviewed. The plan appears to have developed under Bush in response to a flu pandemic... and is possibly based on an 8th grader's science project.

Although our top officials were not very forthcoming early on, we now know to a significant degree who is and is not vulnerable. We should educate and protect the vulnerable and stop the scare-mongering of everyone else.

On the other hand, I get the economic issues. I pray there is an end soon as those without work are suffering. But, in the end, I personally must protect my family by making the right choices.

The right choices have to be based on true information and a valid risk assessment. The problems with the numbers and misleading information being thrown at us make that more difficult than it should be.

In the end, the overreaction to Covid-19 is likely to create far more collateral damage in terms of lives, years of life, and standard of living than the virus itself.

 

[Illinoisvolfan2]

I'll go with you. I have some health concerns but am basically healthy.

Too many are willing to stop living for fear of dying.... and in this case a very, very, very low risk of dying.

As Red said in the Shawshank Redemption “get busy living, or get busy dying”