Amateur Hour, Part Deux

#376
#376
NorthDallas40 said:
I honestly don’t see how you avoid somebody inbred with the MIC not being in that role. You’re just jaded (probably for good reason)

And I’m sure he will divest all interests or they will be placed in trust that meets the ethics requirements
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Dick Cheney did that and the left still hammered away with cries of “but Halliburton!”
 
#377
#377
NorthDallas40 said:
I honestly don’t see how you avoid somebody inbred with the MIC not being in that role. You’re just jaded (probably for good reason)

And I’m sure he will divest all interests or they will be placed in trust that meets the ethics requirements
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Jaded? Who me? I have nothing against the guy, he might be the 1 honest peace loving general we have I just highl doubt it.
 
#378
#378
MG1968 said:
Dick Cheney did that and the left still hammered away with cries of “but Halliburton!”
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Yep. And I’d guess the GOP will cry “but Raytheon Technologies” here too. But that’s gonna ring hollow since a waiver is required. They get two chances to kick him to the curb.

I don’t really know much about the guy frankly.
 
#380
#380
hog88 said:
Jaded? Who me? I have nothing against the guy, he might be the 1 honest peace loving general we have I just highl doubt it.
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I just don’t understand how you can take say a automobile executive or energy executive and put them in that role unless say they were a butter bar or a captain 25 years ago and have some notion.
 
#382
#382
NorthDallas40 said:
I just don’t understand how you can take say a automobile executive or energy executive and put them in that role unless say they were a butter bar or a captain 25 years ago and have some notion.
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It’s about decision making and personality, a successful CEO of a fortune 500 company could run the pentagon. Sec def isn’t drawing up battle plans he’s weighing risk v reward.
 
#383
#383
hog88 said:
It’s about decision making and personality, a successful CEO of a fortune 500 company could run the pentagon. Sec def isn’t drawing up battle plans he’s weighing risk v reward.
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Don’t disagree. It is absolutely a political role. I’m just saying having been a part of the machine at some point is a plus. Not necessarily 4 star part of the machine maybe more Harry Truman part of the machine
 
#384
#384
NorthDallas40 said:
Austin made some silly comments about ISIS not being a serious threat but that honestly doesn’t seem to be a disqualifier. It doesn’t look as fatal as Flournoy’s. It could have been predicated on a course of action he thought we were going to take I don’t know I haven’t read up on the details of his specific comments. I do know several military leaders wanted us to hit them harder and more decisively at the start before they snagged so much territory.
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Flournoy went over Biden’s head to convince Obama that intervening in Libya was the correct action. Then to add to that she took her case to then SECDEF Gates where she presented her case. Then during the NSC meeting her, Gates and the National Security advisor basically ganged up on Biden. It got to the point that Biden cornered Obama outside the Oval to present his case a second time. Flournoy is also extremely partisan which is something I think Biden wants to get away from with respect to DoD. She’s an Academic and approaches foreign and defense policy from a data driven perspective which is hallmark of the Obama years and which is why his foreign defense policy was so garbage. She was a supporter of full regime change in Syria which Biden was against. She opposes the Powell Doctrine and favors a She favors a leaner and more agile military rather than a build up of heavy forces to prepare a possible confrontation. She is to the right of Mattis on Preemptive strikes. As for Austin, and ISIS it’s hard to but all the blame on him. Obama and DoD at the time were dying him all the intelligence access for him to see the whole picture so by the time it had fully developed it was too late.
 
#385
#385
carlos86 said:
Flournoy went over Biden’s head to convince Obama that intervening in Libya was the correct action. Then to add to that she took her case to then SECDEF Gates where she presented her case. Then during the NSC meeting her, Gates and the National Security advisor basically ganged up on Biden. It got to the point that Biden cornered Obama outside the Oval to present his case a second time. Flournoy is also extremely partisan which is something I think Biden wants to get away from with respect to DoD. She’s an Academic and approaches foreign and defense policy from a data driven perspective which is hallmark of the Obama years and which is why his foreign defense policy was so garbage. She was a supporter of full regime change in Syria which Biden was against. She opposes the Powell Doctrine and favors a She favors a leaner and more agile military rather than a build up of heavy forces to prepare a possible confrontation. She is to the right of Mattis on Preemptive strikes. As for Austin, and ISIS it’s hard to but all the blame on him. Obama and DoD at the time were dying him all the intelligence access for him to see the whole picture so by the time it had fully developed it was too late.
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I’ve read up on her sins and they look rather fatal. I just heard in passing earlier today on the ISIS thing. The crux seems to be where you lay the blame on the Intel with ISIS. I don’t know anything about the guy I just took the Newsweek article at face value that he was dismissive I don’t really know
 
#386
#386
hog88 said:
Love the idea of having a guy on the BODs of Raytheon advising the POTUS about going to war or not.
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Former SECDEF Mark Esper was vice president of government relations at Raytheon and was the 2010 lobbyist of the year. Mattis was on the General Dynamics Board of Directors. I’m not defending it just proving if some context. It seems to be were GOs and former officers go to make money after leaving the military.
 
#387
#387
NorthDallas40 said:
I’ve read up on her sins and they look rather fatal. I just heard in passing earlier today on the ISIS thing. The crux seems to be where you lay the blame on the Intel with ISIS. I don’t know anything about the guy I just took the Newsweek article at face value that he was dismissive I don’t really know
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It seems to be a mixed bag about him personally. Everyone says he’s a good stand up guy. He’s the opposite of Mattis, Petreous, and McChystal. He doesn’t have that “I’m a General so worship me” personally. Big tall guy who is known for only speaking when it was necessary. He has his detractors but nothing really just stands out and says “this guy is a POS”.
 
#388
#388
carlos86 said:
Former SECDEF Mark Esper was vice president of government relations at Raytheon and was the 2010 lobbyist of the year. Mattis was on the General Dynamics Board of Directors. I’m not defending it just proving if some context. It seems to be were GOs and former officers go to make money after leaving the military.
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It is completely inbred this has been my world for the last 30 years.

“Welcome our new BD guy! Joe Schmo just retired from the Air Force where he flew F-15’s”

“Welcome our new operations guy! Jim Schmo is the brother of Joe and a former USA colonel in logistics for the MEH program.”

“The company is pleased to announce the appointment of former Lt General Jack Schmo to the BoD. Jack’s two younger brothers also joined the company in the ARGH business unit last year”


Every damn one of them.
 
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#389
#389
The BD F-15 pilot isn’t make believe. We had one. Useless piece of 💩 idiot but he was a nice guy who had a contacts book. Which is how he got hired.

Was gone inside of 18 months. Went to a competitor. Thank God
 
#390
#390
hog88 said:
I feel the opposite from that. Yes McNamara was a disaster but there is too much incentive for flag rank guys to line their pockets with young mens blood. It takes being a good politician more so than a good soldier to get that first star.
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McNamara wasn't entirely a disaster, but Vietnam certainly overshadowed his time as SecDef. Some things he did well were:

The initiation of modern day Special Warfare. SEALs, Green Berets and other special operations types came to life under his leadership

Doing away with the Pentomic structure of the Army and actually made it a viable conventional fighting force once again (especially in Europe)

Consolidation of weapons types like adoption of the M16 across all services (even after the Army tried their best to sabotage it) and the adoption of aircraft like the F-4, C-130 and A-7 as a multi-service, multi-role aircraft instead of dozens of different designs they had when Kennedy took office.

Strategic airlift and sealift took a huge leap forward under McNamara.

Biggest thing though was his advice to Kennedy during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Him and Robert Kennedy that is. The Joint Chiefs continued trying to beat the drum of war and he held them at bay and allowed things to cool down.

McNamara was a businessman first and tried reformatted the Defense Department into an efficient organization through standardization and streamlining services.

Vietnam obviously will always be a stain on his record since that war was a political war first instead of just doing what needed to be done.
 
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#391
#391
carlos86 said:
Former SECDEF Mark Esper was vice president of government relations at Raytheon and was the 2010 lobbyist of the year. Mattis was on the General Dynamics Board of Directors. I’m not defending it just proving if some context. It seems to be were GOs and former officers go to make money after leaving the military.
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Raytheon? I thought that was the company that broadcast the noon SEC game before it became Jefferson Pilot? Or was it the other way around?
 
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#397
#397
NorthDallas40 said:
Oh their fine on weapon development they or their underlings are great at describing what the new toy needs to do. They just suck at program execution and cost control.

Trust me you run a weapon PRODUCTION program very different from how you run a weapon DEVELOPMENT program. Or you do if you want the best outcomes for both.
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Have you read Boyd: The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War by Robert Coram? If you haven't, it's worth reading. It's been a while, and sometimes it's a little tedious, and Boyd does kinda go off the deep end, but his thoughts on weapons development and his fight with the rest of the Air Force was interesting. The cost and the lag time in developing new weapons systems exacerbates the problem in figuring out what weapons are needed, how they will be used, and what they will replace - and why. I have a feeling if Boyd were around watching the F-35 bandied as an A-10 replacement, his comment would be YGBSM! The military needs to learn the KISS principle or they're never going to keep enough of the new stuff up and running to have a chance of winning with it.
 
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#399
#399
AM64 said:
Have you read Boyd: The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War by Robert Coram? If you haven't, it's worth reading. It's been a while, and sometimes it's a little tedious, and Boyd does kinda go off the deep end, but his thoughts on weapons development and his fight with the rest of the Air Force was interesting. The cost and the lag time in developing new weapons systems exacerbates the problem in figuring out what weapons are needed, how they will be used, and what they will replace - and why. I have a feeling if Boyd were around watching the F-35 bandied as an A-10 replacement, his comment would be YGBSM! The military needs to learn the KISS principle or they're never going to keep enough of the new stuff up and running to have a chance of winning with it.
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Oh my friend I disagree. The ODDA loop is what Boyd is referring, which the F-35 brings in spades.
 
#400
#400
NorthDallas40 said:
Fair enough. Senior military leadership and the Military Industrial Complex are inbred. Retired generals almost always wind up working for contractors. Hell Colonels too. They are near inseparable I’d submit.

With regards to whether they are more prone or less prone to start a war I think it depends on the individual frankly. And in my opinion like I’ve stated earlier weve almost lost generational knowledge of how to disengage.

Look at what MacArthur did in Japan. We were more successful there than even Germany I think. But I seriously doubt we replicate that magic again in my lifetime anyway. We simply don’t seem to know how to stop fighting. And like hogg has said frankly many don’t want to stop. I can’t argue the point but we can’t afford it from the money or people cost.
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You have to fight to win or never get involved in a war to win - one or the other. After WW2 we've been in a string of debacles with no clear strategy for the win. You either walk away in defeat or you get mired in endless war when you don't fight to win.
 
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