Amateur Hour, Part Deux

#401
#401
Grand Vol said:
McNamara wasn't entirely a disaster, but Vietnam certainly overshadowed his time as SecDef. Some things he did well were:

The initiation of modern day Special Warfare. SEALs, Green Berets and other special operations types came to life under his leadership

Doing away with the Pentomic structure of the Army and actually made it a viable conventional fighting force once again (especially in Europe)

Consolidation of weapons types like adoption of the M16 across all services (even after the Army tried their best to sabotage it) and the adoption of aircraft like the F-4, C-130 and A-7 as a multi-service, multi-role aircraft instead of dozens of different designs they had when Kennedy took office.

Strategic airlift and sealift took a huge leap forward under McNamara.

Biggest thing though was his advice to Kennedy during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Him and Robert Kennedy that is. The Joint Chiefs continued trying to beat the drum of war and he held them at bay and allowed things to cool down.

McNamara was a businessman first and tried reformatted the Defense Department into an efficient organization through standardization and streamlining services.

Vietnam obviously will always be a stain on his record since that war was a political war first instead of just doing what needed to be done.
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How much of that was due to McNamara or just while he held the post.

On spec ops we didn’t get all the way there until Eagle Claw went tits up in the middle of the desert and SOCOM began materialize.

The airlift was the natural evolution of the technology at the time I think the C-141 was during that era. The C-130 predated him but perhaps he forced the standardization don’t know. However I’d submit the airplane itself had a lot to do with that. Not sure if the C-5 began to materialize on his watch or not.

I primarily remember him for the M-16 fiasco (sounds like you’re placing more of that blame on Springfield Arsenal tho) and Vietnam
 
#402
#402
AM64 said:
Have you read Boyd: The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War by Robert Coram? If you haven't, it's worth reading. It's been a while, and sometimes it's a little tedious, and Boyd does kinda go off the deep end, but his thoughts on weapons development and his fight with the rest of the Air Force was interesting. The cost and the lag time in developing new weapons systems exacerbates the problem in figuring out what weapons are needed, how they will be used, and what they will replace - and why. I have a feeling if Boyd were around watching the F-35 bandied as an A-10 replacement, his comment would be YGBSM! The military needs to learn the KISS principle or they're never going to keep enough of the new stuff up and running to have a chance of winning with it.
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I’ll look it up thx.
 
#403
#403
AM64 said:
You have to fight to win or never get involved in a war to win - one or the other. After WW2 we've been in a string of debacles with no clear strategy for the win. You either walk away in defeat or you get mired in endless war when you don't fight to win.
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Agreed. The French tried to warn us on Vietnam. We kinda stepped on our own Johnson on Korea I think with confusing messages telegraphed on our sphere of protection.
 
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#404
#404
NorthDallas40 said:
I’ll look it up thx.
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You are a part of the ODDA Loop...I think. My feelings are you are cutting edge and yes it is very pricey and almost obsolete by the time fielded. But I want the baddest militray we can field, especially with a China horizon.
 
#405
#405
Orangeburst said:
You are a part of the ODDA Loop...I think. My feelings are you are cutting edge and yes it is very pricey and almost obsolete by the time fielded. But I want the baddest militray we can field, especially with a China horizon.
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Yes. The OODA Loop I believe and that is Boyd’s. You perked a memory and I looked that up 😎

I’m in it for three more years...
 
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#406
#406
Orangeburst said:
Oh my friend I disagree. The ODDA loop is what Boyd is referring, which the F-35 brings in spades.
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Yes, it does theoretically provide a lot of options, but it first has to be operational, and it has to survive. CAS on a nice sunny day isn't exactly stealth friendly. It's one of those things where time will tell, but let's just say I have my doubts looking from the outside in.
 
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#409
#409
AM64 said:
Yes, it does theoretically provide a lot of options, but it first has to be operational, and it has to survive. CAS on a nice sunny day isn't exactly stealth friendly. It's one of those things where time will tell, but let's just say I have my doubts looking from the outside in.
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Lobbing SDBs from 40 miles away with precision accuracy in all weather beats the crap out of NEZ of firing 30mm bottles
 
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#410
#410
Orangeburst said:
Lobbing SDBs from 40 miles away with precision accuracy in all weather beats the crap out of NEZ of firing 30mm bottles
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So I’ve been googling stuff to see what I can name drop and can’t find what I want to say.

Just remember that many of today’s GPS guided weapons have data links and the “truck” carrying them need never get in harms way to deliver them.

But that isn’t the CAS mission. The A-10 still owns that low and slow mission with real time BDA capability. You gotta be able to see the target and weapon impact to do that.
 
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#412
#412
NorthDallas40 said:
So I’ve been googling stuff to see what I can name drop and can’t find what I want to say.

Just remember that many of today’s GPS guided weapons have data links and the “truck” carrying them need never get in harms way to deliver them.

But that isn’t the CAS mission. The A-10 still owns that low and slow mission with real time BDA capability. You gotta be able to see the target and weapon impact to do that.
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Bones do CAS at altitude. With persstance

Sen. McCain: B-1s Really Do CAS! « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary
 
#413
#413
Orangeburst said:
Lobbing SDBs from 40 miles away with precision accuracy in all weather beats the crap out of NEZ of firing 30mm bottles
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You lost me on "NEZ", but I get what you are saying. Again it's the result that matters to the guy on the ground, but bombing and artillery don't always live up to expectations. I know I don't have the expertise to argue that one means is better or can replace the other for effect, but for pilot safety, you are absolutely right.
 
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#414
#414
AM64 said:
You lost me on "NEZ", but I get what you are saying. Again it's the result that matters to the guy on the ground, but bombing and artillery don't always live up to expectations. I know I don't have the expertise to argue that one means is better or can replace the other for effect, but for pilot safety, you are absolutely right.
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Normal Engagement Zone..ie AAA fire or SAM's
 
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#415
#415
Orangeburst said:
Bones do CAS at altitude. With persstance

Sen. McCain: B-1s Really Do CAS! « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary
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Ok that touches on it. The JDAMs with the data link. Didn’t realize they hung SNIPER on the B-1 but ok. Big expensive airplane with four crew members but it’s their mission 🤷‍♂️

Basically with the data link equipped weapons you can get into an engagement scenario where the release platform isn’t the targeting platform.

You can do the same thing with LGB’s any platform can drop a Paveway II/III as it is lanyard armed on release and then an MQ-9 can paint the target and do real time BDA. That way you minimize the aircraft/aircrew exposure threat. Who cares if we lose an MQ-9 Reaper.
 
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#416
#416
NorthDallas40 said:
Ok that touches on it. The JDAMs with the data link. Didn’t realize they hung SNIPER on the B-1 but ok. Big expensive airplane with four crew members but it’s their mission 🤷‍♂️

Basically with the data link equipped weapons you can get into an engagement scenario where the release platform isn’t the targeting platform.

You can do the same thing with LGB’s any platform can drop a Paveway II/III as it is lanyard armed on release and then an MQ-9 can paint the target and do real time BDA. That way you minimize the aircraft/aircrew exposure threat. Who cares if we lose an MQ-9 Reaper.
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That is where it is headed. Persistence and legs matter as well. I think the A-10 and Bronco types are fantastic for insurgency warfare with close airfield and air dominance. Pacific near peer..No..
 
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#417
#417
NorthDallas40 said:
How much of that was due to McNamara or just while he held the post.

On spec ops we didn’t get all the way there until Eagle Claw went tits up in the middle of the desert and SOCOM began materialize.

The airlift was the natural evolution of the technology at the time I think the C-141 was during that era. The C-130 predated him but perhaps he forced the standardization don’t know. However I’d submit the airplane itself had a lot to do with that. Not sure if the C-5 began to materialize on his watch or not.

I primarily remember him for the M-16 fiasco (sounds like you’re placing more of that blame on Springfield Arsenal tho) and Vietnam
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Eagle Claw was a disaster from the word go because every service wanted a piece of that pie. Army, Marines, USAF and Navy all wanted to be a part of it and it complicated matters extremely. None of the separate pieces of that puzzle practiced beforehand and unforeseen conditions made it impossible to move forward. But also remembering, ten years earlier Special Forces pulled off what would have been a highly successful mission at Son Toy had the POWs actually been there. Eagle Claw was really indicative of the state of the entire military post Vietnam and during the Carter years.

Yes, the C-141 and C-5 began during the Kennedy/Johnson years under McNamara as Secretary, though the -141B mods came later.

The M14 debacle began years before McNamara and started out of the insane desire for the Army to have a "modified Garand" replacement that fixed the shortcomings of the Garand and could be manufactured on Garand production lines. Which turned out to be false on the modified production lines at least. Also, the testing that involved the T44 (M14) and T48 (FAL) kept moving the goal posts until the US adopted the M14. Nothing wrong with the M14, but the Army really wanted "Murican!" instead of that silly foreign rifle.

They really could have waited a little longer and let Eugene Stoner put the right barrels on the AR-10... anyway.

The Army did it's best to fight against the M16 and keep their battle rifles for some odd reason even though they were ill suited to the warfare beginning to be waged at the time. The AR15s in the hands of US Advisors in Vietnam in the early 60s were well regarded and the USAF started jumping on that bandwagon to replace a whole hoop of WWII era weaponry.

It's an interesting history of what the Army did in order to make that weapon as unattractive as possible. Most of your "urban legends" about how the M16 FOW is a POS and jam-o-matic comes from the very early days when nobody was really taught how to use or clean them. Not even getting into the powder debacle. None is really on McNamara to an extent, but he was the one that ceased production of the M14 in favor of the M16 and standardized it across the board.
 
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#421
#421
GSD82 said:
3rd term of Barry
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Seems like I remember that Susan Rice was an intolerant witch - could have her confused with one of the other in the obama gang, but I believe she was a very disagreeable person.
 
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