America, the ignorant...

#26
#26
Oh this is actually a test? I thought it was just referring to the election years of 2000 and 2004
 
#27
#27
lawgator1 said:
Ahhhh, and now we see the real point of the thread (and, perhaps, the test itself).

People are better at knowing things about what might be identified as liberal matters, i.e. who MLK and Anthony were, as opposed to conservative ideals, such as how to calculate a profit, and therefore in your view they are being poorly educated.

You know, one would not have to go too far out on a limb to point out to you that the definition of profit might better be included in a quiz on economics, whereas MLK and Susan B. Anthony questions are indeed right at home in a quiz about civics.

Food for thought.
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Considering the fact that our nation was founded on the principles of free market capitalism, I would say that the basic principles of economics are right at home. However, if you want to try and state that this test is skewed to favor a conservative standpoint, I will, once again, add a statistically backed rebuttal (of which, you have so far lacked...)

Only 66% of respondents correctly identified the New Deal.

Less than 20% could correctly identifiy the crux of the debates between Lincoln and Douglas.

Less than 50% could correctly identify the three branches of government.

Less 54% understand that the power to declare war is expressly given to the Legislative Branch under the Constitution.

Those, are most definitely more important in an argument and understanding of civics, as it concerns the United States of America, than are anything relating to Susan B. Anthony or MLK, Jr.
 
#29
#29
OrangeEmpire said:
:lolabove:

I love twit lawyers....

globalwarming.jpg
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Well, I went back to the first post and now get his not-so-subtle claim that the same idiot people that know who MLK is but don't know how to calculate a profit are the same ones intrigued by Paula Abdul.


Let's just say I get the political point of the thread a whole lot better than I did at the beginning.
 
#30
#30
lawgator1 said:
Well, I went back to the first post and now get his not-so-subtle claim that the same idiot people that know who MLK is but don't know how to calculate a profit are the same ones intrigued by Paula Abdul.


Let's just say I get the political point of the thread a whole lot better than I did at the beginning.
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You love to read stuff into things. I thought the point was the most Americans don't know their civics related history - silly me.
 
#32
#32
volinbham said:
You love to read stuff into things. I thought the point was the most Americans don't know their civics related history - silly me.
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your bias just kept you from seeing the insidious nature of this thread and the bad intentions of the OP.

If you were a bit more open to new ideas, you wouldn't have had to wait a couple days for LG to roll in here and point out the truth.
 
#33
#33
volinbham said:
You love to read stuff into things. I thought the point was the most Americans don't know their civics related history - silly me.
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You are wrong. He is saying that the same people who don't know what he thinks are real civics, i.e. profit versus MLK, are morons and poorly educated. Oh, and they also like Paula Abdul or at least know more about her than the Lincoln-Douglass debates and that is proof positive of their ignorance.


OrangeEmpire said:
Gator is paid to second guess people after an incident.
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Actually, I am paid to keep people from doing that, at least in a way that is unfair to people who have to make split second decisions under great stress.
 
#34
#34
lawgator1 said:
You are wrong. He is saying that the same people who don't know what he thinks are real civics, i.e. profit versus MLK, are morons and poorly educated. Oh, and they also like Paula Abdul or at least know more about her than the Lincoln-Douglass debates and that is proof positive of their ignorance.
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Maybe Trut will settle this?
 
#35
#35
lawgator1 said:
You are wrong. He is saying that the same people who don't know what he thinks are real civics, i.e. profit versus MLK, are morons and poorly educated.
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An adult who does not understand how to calculate profit/income is a poorly educated moron.

Knowing who MLK is will have little practical value to most individuals in life.
 
#36
#36
I've done a little research and it turns out that the group doing this is in fact an off-shoot of the uber-rightwing William Bennett's Madison Center for Educational Affairs. As one commentator noted about this survey, it is pure propaganda masquerading as science.

The dead giveaway was probably the fact that there were questions along the lines of "Free markets typically secure more economic prosperity than government's centralized planning because:" or "International trade and specialization most often lead to which of the following?" I didn't pick up on what was going on in this "survey" when I read those, and for that I apoloigize.

These are NOT civics questions. They are arguments and they are hoisted out there as fact, that people don't know, and so shame on them. And shame on our educational system for not teaching them to think the way they should, right?

Really pretty transparent what this is all about once you get into it.
 
#37
#37
what is untrue about free market capitalism creating more prosperity than a centrally planned economy?
 
#38
#38
This poll was put out for the very purpose of having people miss certain questions so that the "institute" could feign astonishment at the failure rate.

This thing is effectively the same as me asking a bunch of UT students about the history of the University of Florida and the University of Alabama and then labelling it "A Survey on Higher Education in America." Followed by me issuing a press release bemoaning the fact that UT students are idiots becuase they scored poorly.
 
#39
#39
lawgator1 said:
I've done a little research and it turns out that the group doing this is in fact an off-shoot of the uber-rightwing William Bennett's Madison Center for Educational Affairs. As one commentator noted about this survey, it is pure propaganda masquerading as science.

The dead giveaway was probably the fact that there were questions along the lines of "Free markets typically secure more economic prosperity than government's centralized planning because:" or "International trade and specialization most often lead to which of the following?" I didn't pick up on what was going on in this "survey" when I read those, and for that I apoloigize.

These are NOT civics questions. They are arguments and they are hoisted out there as fact, that people don't know, and so shame on them. And shame on our educational system for not teaching them to think the way they should, right?

Really pretty transparent what this is all about once you get into it.
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Who is the commentator that calls it propaganda and what are his political leanings?

Most of the questions are indeed civics questions.
 
#40
#40
lawgator1 said:
This poll was put out for the very purpose of having people miss certain questions so that the "institute" could feign astonishment at the failure rate.
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Which questions were people supposed to miss?

Do you mean these?


Less than 20% could correctly identifiy the crux of the debates between Lincoln and Douglas.

Less than 50% could correctly identify the three branches of government.

Less 54% understand that the power to declare war is expressly given to the Legislative Branch under the Constitution.
 
#41
#41
you never did tell us what your score was LG.

would you have felt better if one of the questions had been, "Which of the Founding Fathers were not slave owners?"
 
#42
#42
lawgator1 said:
I've done a little research and it turns out that the group doing this is in fact an off-shoot of the uber-rightwing William Bennett's Madison Center for Educational Affairs. As one commentator noted about this survey, it is pure propaganda masquerading as science.

The dead giveaway was probably the fact that there were questions along the lines of "Free markets typically secure more economic prosperity than government's centralized planning because:" or "International trade and specialization most often lead to which of the following?" I didn't pick up on what was going on in this "survey" when I read those, and for that I apoloigize.

These are NOT civics questions. They are arguments and they are hoisted out there as fact, that people don't know, and so shame on them. And shame on our educational system for not teaching them to think the way they should, right?

Really pretty transparent what this is all about once you get into it.
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Are you arguing that an American shouldn't be able to answer those questions?

The two economics questions you have singled out aren't up for debate in the economist community. It isn't propaganda that specialization and international trade is a more efficient economic system. There is no debate about it.

There is also no debate that free markets typically secure more economic prosperity than do centrally governed markets.

The survey isn't particularly well done, but the propaganda argument about the questions is just garbage, if only due to the limited audience that will ever see it. The results of this set of questions can't really be construed to mean anything and that's the problem rather than some trumped up overconservative viewpoint.

Just cut and paste these comments when you switch tunes over to a racial bias here.
 
#44
#44
lawgator1 said:
You are wrong. He is saying that the same people who don't know what he thinks are real civics, i.e. profit versus MLK, are morons and poorly educated. Oh, and they also like Paula Abdul or at least know more about her than the Lincoln-Douglass debates and that is proof positive of their ignorance.




Actually, I am paid to keep people from doing that, at least in a way that is unfair to people who have to make split second decisions under great stress.
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If it makes you feel better to think that.

:eek:k:
 
#45
#45
volinbham said:
Which questions were people supposed to miss?

Do you mean these?


Less than 20% could correctly identifiy the crux of the debates between Lincoln and Douglas.

Less than 50% could correctly identify the three branches of government.

Less 54% understand that the power to declare war is expressly given to the Legislative Branch under the Constitution.
Click to expand...


Those are the ones put in there to give it the guise of being broad, when in reality the purpose is to push poll.


MG1968 said:
you never did tell us what your score was LG.

would you have felt better if one of the questions had been, "Which of the Founding Fathers were not slave owners?"
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85.something was my score. Guessed I miss one more than you guys did.


MG1968 said:
Madison Center for Educational Affairs - SourceWatch

whew, that Madison Center for Educational Affairs sounds like a real dangerous organization intent on brainwashing the minds of college students.

given what happened on Nov. 4th, I'd have to say that LG's paranoia is ill-founded
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Did you read what you attached? Neocons? Getting endowments from uber-right organizations? Seriously, if you think that makes them out to be objective, you got issues.
 
#46
#46
lawgator1 said:
Those are the ones put in there to give it the guise of being broad, when in reality the purpose is to push poll.
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Your reality is incredibly skewed. Apparently, the following questions are intended as propaganda to push a certain agenda:

5) The United States Electoral College:A. trains those aspiring for higher political officeB. was established to supervise the first televised presidential debatesC. is otherwise known as the U.S. CongressD. is a constitutionally mandated assembly that elects the presidentE. was ruled undemocratic by the Supreme Court

Less than 66% of respondents answered this correctly.

24) In the area of United States foreign policy, Congress shares power with the:A. presidentB. Supreme CourtC. state governmentsD. United Nations

Less than 55% answered this correctly.

32) Which of the following is a policy tool of the Federal Reserve?A. raising or lowering income taxesB. increasing or decreasing unemployment benefitsC. buying or selling government securitiesD. increasing or decreasing government spending

Less than 37% answered this correctly.

Once again, outstanding argument, LG.
 
#47
#47
lawgator1 said:
Did you read what you attached? Neocons? Getting endowments from uber-right organizations? Seriously, if you think that makes them out to be objective, you got issues.
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what was the agenda of the organization in producing this questionnaire?
 
#48
#48
therealUT said:
Your reality is incredibly skewed. Apparently, the following questions are intended as propaganda to push a certain agenda:

5) The United States Electoral College:A. trains those aspiring for higher political officeB. was established to supervise the first televised presidential debatesC. is otherwise known as the U.S. CongressD. is a constitutionally mandated assembly that elects the presidentE. was ruled undemocratic by the Supreme Court

Less than 66% of respondents answered this correctly.

24) In the area of United States foreign policy, Congress shares power with the:A. presidentB. Supreme CourtC. state governmentsD. United Nations

Less than 55% answered this correctly.

32) Which of the following is a policy tool of the Federal Reserve?A. raising or lowering income taxesB. increasing or decreasing unemployment benefitsC. buying or selling government securitiesD. increasing or decreasing government spending

Less than 37% answered this correctly.

Once again, outstanding argument, LG.
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People not understanding the function of the EC is a well known defect in a lot of people's understanding of our government, I don't disagree with that.

Number 24 was IMO basically a slight at the UN and the irrational panic people have that we have somehow surrendered any significant power or sovereignty to them, which is of course absurd.

Number 32 I got no problem with. I suspect that people are becomign more and more edumacated as to the role of the Fed in this day and age.



BigPapaVol said:
what was the agenda of the organization in producing this questionnaire?
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At least two-fold. First, to promote their quiz as indicative of the things people should "know," but don't. I put should in italics because they are the ones making the judgment that the factoid is important. I put know in quotes because some of them are not objective fact and can't be known.

But when you say someone, in order to demonstrate acumen in civics should know that free enterprise raises the standard of living better than does centralized control (I am being way parenthetical here), then you pretty much are forcing your belief as the fact standard, and that's just improper in terms of process, intellectually.

The second purpose, which is an extension of the first, is to set up invalid comparisons within the quiz, i.e. look how many people know who MLK and Susan B. Anthony were, but don't understand the Federal Reserve or definitions of profit. First, that equates understanding the definition of profit with knowing MLK, in the context of civics, which of course one is about and the other really isn't (or is at least somewhat misplaced). Second, it is designed to make people think, uh oh, we need to spend less time on MLK and more time on talking about how to make a profit.

Now, I don't necessarily disagree that we need better education about economic issues, or even those that drive political concerns. That is a completely valid point of view and if they want to criticize higher education for not doing a good enough job on that, God speed.

Just don't do it with some sort of fake quiz designed to give the falsified impramatur of scientific study just so you can feign outrage that the things you promote aren't studied better.
 
#49
#49
The things you are reading into this quiz are unbelievable.
 
#50
#50
BigPapaVol said:
what was the agenda of the organization in producing this questionnaire?
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It's apparently an agenda about college reform, but considering the content of their questions you would think they would be pushing for education reform in general. Those questions did not require a college degree to answer, and most should have been learned in basic civics and United States history classes. Their funding source is somewhat dubious, but at least at face value there isn't really anything going on.
 
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