Andraya Carter’s playing future with Lady Vols in doubt because of knee pain

[bobkitten]

I'm thinking of players who have shown up for fall term with little apparent stamina. It seems they have spent the summer not pushing to increase their endurance.

I don't want to name names, but think who has had to have frequent breaks during games, early to middle of the season.

 

[BMvol27]

You don't rest elite athlete's before a competitive run, you work them into a lather, so they are ready. Staying with the racehorse analogy: you work the steed all the way up to the week it is to run the race, then you give it incremental rests so it can use the training it had, and have enough gas in its tank to perform at its peak.

Forget burnout at this age...Burnout only happens to a vert tiny margin of players beyond middle school.

MS is when most of burnout happens, in my history and memory...usually for one of two reasons:
1) They have played the sport to that point because Mom or dad was living vicariously through them.
2) They find out that the better they get, the more it affects their personal life... The lose friends to jealousy; They don't get to go to events because of workouts or games; Or, they're simply not watched for the obvious signs... e.g... they start trying to roll eyes or make excuses not to go to an event., and so on.

It's not just middle schoolers.

Sky's Epiphanny Prince taking time off - Yahoo Sports

 

[Coach Jumper]

It's not just middle schoolers.

Sky's Epiphanny Prince taking time off - Yahoo Sports

Yes, but Epiphanny 's article says...She's had a total of eight weeks off over the past four years and no more than 10 consecutive days in a row during that span. . . . This would be an unusual circumstance for a 18-22 year old.

 

[DeerPark12]

I sat behind the bench at multiple away games this past season. I personally heard some of the things Holly said to the players during timeouts.

It just isn't true that she doesn't get on the players, in spite of what keeps getting posted on this board. I heard her tell one player that if you do that again you're not going back in this half. Well the player did it again, and she didn't go back in in that half. I'll give you one guess as to who that player was. I heard her implore the team to take the first open jump shot. I heard her blister one player for not getting back on defense.

I don't think Holly was very effective at coaching this team this past season, but the narrative that has developed that she doesn't get on the players just isn't true from what I've seen.

Thanks, Jeff. Glad somebody else saw it.

 

[Darth_Vol]

It is sad that Draya may not be able to go next year but she sure was a trooper to get through the season with these injuries. Her situation highlights why can it can a big mistake to criticize players without knowledge of the problems or complications they are having to negotiate. For Draya, making it through the season meant reducing stress on her knees which led to diminished practice time and fewer shooting reps and so on (not too mention how knee problems can negatively affect one's shot in the first place). Her offensive struggles where due to not laziness or other imputed character flaws but a health restriction. The upside is that Draya has her life on a great trajectory to accomplish important things beyond basketball. Go Draya.

Well said. Some of the "fans" here obviously had no clue how injured she really was. Draya will be fine. The Lady Vols' backcourt, not so much....

 

[Benionsopinion]

Well said. Some of the "fans" here obviously had no clue how injured she really was. Draya will be fine. The Lady Vols' backcourt, not so much....

Good discussion from all posters. The fact that Andraya had to play while injured is either an indictment of the coaches or the players available to play in her place. Playing someone with an injury will not help recovery. After the season is over,it seems that playing someone else more minutes might have made sense.

 

[armchair]

Good discussion from all posters. The fact that Andraya had to play while injured is either an indictment of the coaches or the players available to play in her place. Playing someone with an injury will not help recovery. After the season is over,it seems that playing someone else more minutes might have made sense.

in my opinion.

 

[madtownvol]

Good discussion from all posters. The fact that Andraya had to play while injured is either an indictment of the coaches or the players available to play in her place. Playing someone with an injury will not help recovery. After the season is over,it seems that playing someone else more minutes might have made sense.

First off, the medical staff is not going to put any one on the floor for whom playing will due further damage. Lots of players play through problems that can be "managed" with rest, ice, and therapy. Draya likely wanted to play and she brought experience and floor leadership. Probably if Meme had come on like gang busters, Draya would have seen less time on the floor.

Normally, players are applauded for playing through problems, showing toughness etc. And coaches make decision all the time as to whether on balance, a player with some limitations is still able to make a contribution. CPS did it with Kelly Cain, Vicki Baugh, Loree Moore even Holdsclaw in her freshman year, played with a knee brace due to a sprained MCL. I could list others. I don't recall any one trashing CPS for such decisions.

Is it possible that CHW and the current team not be criticized for EVERYTHING they do?

 

[bobkitten]

I think everyone--coaches and player--give it their best shot. No one is trying to mess up.

I hope some of the younger players come ready to step up this year. It seems like some were not ready last year.

 

[Benionsopinion]

First off, the medical staff is not going to put any one on the floor for whom playing will due further damage. Lots of players play through problems that can be "managed" with rest, ice, and therapy. Draya likely wanted to play and she brought experience and floor leadership. Probably if Meme had come on like gang busters, Draya would have seen less time on the floor

MTV,you are right about medical staff,but do you think that Draya was was ever 100 percent, or 90 or even 75? I don't,and players with two good legs should have been given the chance to see what they brought to the table. Draya gave her all and I applaud her for it. You mentioned MeMe in your post. We heard from different posters during the year that she was great in practice,so why not use her more? Coaches must see a huge difference to use the injured player as much as they did.

 

[madtownvol]

First off, the medical staff is not going to put any one on the floor for whom playing will due further damage. Lots of players play through problems that can be "managed" with rest, ice, and therapy. Draya likely wanted to play and she brought experience and floor leadership. Probably if Meme had come on like gang busters, Draya would have seen less time on the floor

MTV,you are right about medical staff,but do you think that Draya was was ever 100 percent, or 90 or even 75? I don't,and players with two good legs should have been given the chance to see what they brought to the table. Draya gave her all and I applaud her for it. You mentioned MeMe in your post. We heard from different posters during the year that she was great in practice,so why not use her more? Coaches must see a huge difference to use the injured player as much as they did.

It comes down to trust. There is a huge difference between practice and game situations. I speak as the parent of a college athlete, even hard practices don't simulate game speed (against equal or better caliber opponents). Plus, some freshmen are simply slower on picking up on the mental details of switching, positioning and so on. In some situations, a coach might say, my injured red-shirt junior is less likely to make a game deciding mistake than my inexperienced freshman.

But, your post seems to be ambiguous on the one side, you seem to leave open the possibility that there was a good reason for playing Draya-- "the coaches must see a huge difference"-- but the general tone suggest that you believe this decision was a major mistake.

At some point, when it comes to who plays and who doesn't, I generally give the benefit of the doubt to the coaching staff who see the players day in and day, in different situations and know their mindsets, abilities, and limitations.

 

[mlindsay]

It comes down to trust. There is a huge difference between practice and game situations. I speak as the parent of a college athlete, even hard practices don't simulate game speed (against equal or better caliber opponents). Plus, some freshmen are simply slower on picking up on the mental details of switching, positioning and so on. In some situations, a coach might say, my injured red-shirt junior is less likely to make a game deciding mistake than my inexperienced freshman.

But, your post seems to be ambiguous on the one side, you seem to leave open the possibility that there was a good reason for playing Draya-- "the coaches must see a huge difference"-- but the general tone suggest that you believe this decision was a major mistake.

At some point, when it comes to who plays and who doesn't, I generally give the benefit of the doubt to the coaching staff who see the players day in and day, in different situations and know their mindsets, abilities, and limitations.

I think it was a major mistake, I'm not saying not play her but I think her minutes should have been scaled back a little in favor or Middleton, Jackson, and Dunbar. In many of the games Draya failed to score or provide any assist/steals so essentially she was a body out there running Holly's offense. Maybe by resting her and going with some of your younger players a little more often she would've been able to help more during the tournament. A healthy Carter in the Syracuse game would have been great but by the time we got to that game her knees were done. I say the same for a player like Nia the season we lost Izzy in the tournament. After Nia had those 4 straight games where she averaged like 20 and 9 (I understand it was against weaker competition) I think Holly should have stuck with her and slowly eased Izzy back in which could have built her (Nia) confidence up and she would've have been ready for the competition we had to face in the tournament.

 

[HoopDR]

I think some of you guys are right there on the fringe of what some of the problems have been. I will be the first to say that players have not been playing up to what most believed they are capable of. But I also think the underlying issue really had a lot to do with the disconnect among the coaching staff. I truly think that is the reason CHW decided to replace Kyra. I think Kyra believed that the LVs should only be looking at top 10 recruits. Thus the reason TN missed out when those Top 10s decided to go else where. That "reason" however is a topic for another thread!

CHW and Kyra had two different views of what the LVs should look like. I am hoping that with the replacing of Kyra that it is a sign that CHW has finally "gotten it"! We can only wait and see where she goes with her program now.

 

[Coach Jumper]

I think some of you guys are right there on the fringe of what some of the problems have been. I will be the first to say that players have not been playing up to what most believed they are capable of. But I also think the underlying issue really had a lot to do with the disconnect among the coaching staff. I truly think that is the reason CHW decided to replace Kyra. I think Kyra believed that the LVs should only be looking at top 10 recruits. Thus the reason TN missed out when those Top 10s decided to go else where. That "reason" however is a topic for another thread!

CHW and Kyra had two different views of what the LVs should look like. I am hoping that with the replacing of Kyra that it is a sign that CHW has finally "gotten it"! We can only wait and see where she goes with her program now.

Now if they could fill the void in the staff. A couple have pointed out that HW got in the face of the girls for under-performing, but, I have yet to see any impact from it in games. The impact from getting in someone's face should be immediate. AND, it is not always about
"getting in a player's grill"... Sometimes they just need to hear the right words for whatever they are feeling. It's not ALWAYS just an attitude thing, sometimes its about something non-basketball... The staff has to have someone who can read the players and give them the help they need right then...The "wrong thing said" can be worse than "nothing said"... Those of us who raised girls, know this to be without question.

 

[LVJeff]

Regarding Carter's minutes: They dropped in the last 11 games a pretty good amount.

1st 5 game avg 26 min per game
next 5 game avg 30.6 min per game
next 5 game avg 22.2 min per game
next 5 game avg 28.6 min per game
next 5 game avg 33.8 min per game
next 5 game avg 21 min per game
last 6 game avg 22 min per game

 

[mlindsay]

Regarding Carter's minutes: They dropped in the last 11 games a pretty good amount.

1st 5 game avg 26 min per game
next 5 game avg 30.6 min per game
next 5 game avg 22.2 min per game
next 5 game avg 28.6 min per game
next 5 game avg 33.8 min per game
next 5 game avg 21 min per game
last 6 game avg 22 min per game

Imo with her knee as bad as people are reporting (that she might have to give up the game) she should have never played over 30 minutes in a game. She should have played around 18 to 20 minutes a game, thats just me

 

[madtownvol]

I just hope CHW is reading this posts and is now motivated to hope in her time machine and correct this mistake Go back to the future Holly!

 

[Amb3096]

I just hope CHW is reading this posts and is now motivated to hope in her time machine and correct this mistake Go back to the future Holly!

The point is that one would hope Holly learned from this, and when faced with a similar situation, she wouldn't let it play out the same way.

 

[LVJeff]

Imo with her knee as bad as people are reporting (that she might have to give up the game) she should have never played over 30 minutes in a game. She should have played around 18 to 20 minutes a game, thats just me

I just hope CHW is reading this posts and is now motivated to hope in her time machine and correct this mistake Go back to the future Holly!

The point is that one would hope Holly learned from this, and when faced with a similar situation, she wouldn't let it play out the same way.

I think none of us know the state of Carter's health, how strong or fragile her knees are (were), how much or how little pain she was in, what the medical staff had to say, what Carter herself told the medical staff and coaches, or how limited she was in practice. I have no idea whether Holly made any mistakes or should have played Carter more or less minutes. So the situation may have been handled exactly as it should have been.

 

[madtownvol]

The point is that one would hope Holly learned from this, and when faced with a similar situation, she wouldn't let it play out the same way.

Well, there is never a "similar" situation.

So, next year, before a major game Diamond has an ankle injury that she can play through but it limits mobility; do you play her?

Or Mercedes develops a low back problem that can be managed but again the injury places some limitations on her movement; she is our main post and we have an important conference game against an opponent with size. Do you play her?

The list of potential scenarios, each with their own set of contingencies and trade-offs can on ad infinitum.

It is really easy with 20-20 hindsight to make strong conclusions about what should have done but in the midst of a season coaches are in a classic decision making under uncertainty situation.

 

[madtownvol]

I think none of us know the state of Carter's health, how strong or fragile her knees are (were), how much or how little pain she was in, what the medical staff had to say, what Carter herself told the medical staff and coaches, or how limited she was in practice. I have no idea whether Holly made any mistakes or should have played Carter more or less minutes. So the situation may have been handled exactly as it should have been.

Just for the record, my post was intended to be ironic. I agree with you on this.

 

[Amb3096]

Well, there is never a "similar" situation.

So, next year, before a major game Diamond has an ankle injury that she can play through but it limits mobility; do you play her?

Or Mercedes develops a low back problem that can be managed but again the injury places some limitations on her movement; she is our main post and we have an important conference game against an opponent with size. Do you play her?

Assuming they are medically cleared, then yes. Because they are key players, and even limited, they would be needed much more than a player of Andraya's caliber. She wasn't a game changer like Diamond is or Mercedes can be. Playing her as much as she did only resulted in players like Jackson and Middleton not getting valuable game time.

 

[Benionsopinion]

Assuming they are medically cleared, then yes. Because they are key players, and even limited, they would be needed much more than a player of Andraya's caliber. She wasn't a game changer like Diamond is or Mercedes can be. Playing her as much as she did only resulted in players like Jackson and Middleton not getting valuable game time.

Absolutely right,Amb3096. Another question to ponder is since the aforementioned article came out after the season was over,what changed in Andraya's condition that she may no longer be able to play? If her knees at this point preclude her playing,why did they not during time that she was practicing and playing every day. Has something changed? Maybe she hid the extent of how much pain she was enduring. This is something that happens with competitors,they don't want to give in to pain. Andraya is a competitor and is to be lauded for her efforts above anything else.

 

[Amb3096]

Absolutely right,Amb3096. Another question to ponder is since the aforementioned article came out after the season was over,what changed in Andraya's condition that she may no longer be able to play? If her knees at this point preclude her playing,why did they not during time that she was practicing and playing every day. Has something changed? Maybe she hid the extent of how much pain she was enduring. This is something that happens with competitors,they don't want to give in to pain. Andraya is a competitor and is to be lauded for her efforts above anything else.

Someone posted earlier how Andraya's minutes went down significantly in the latter third of the season. I thought that it was Holly finally figuring out that her performance didn't merit those kinds of minutes, but it seems to fit the narrative that it was due to her health. Didn't the linked article note that Holly was aware of her health situation and that Andraya was not practicing with the team as a result?

 

[Benionsopinion]

I think that's true. She must have been getting a lot worse due to the wear and tear of the season.