Another Mass Shooting - Philly Fireworks

#227
#227
hog88 said:
You are talking about adults. Are you going to require mommies permission for an 18yo to vote, join the military, buy a car ext?
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Teenagers aren’t using a vote or enlistment to massacre people… and I don’t think you want to go the car route with licensing, liability insurance, registration, etc… or maybe you do?
 
#228
#228
OHvol40 said:
Teenagers aren’t using a vote or enlistment to massacre people… and I don’t think you want to go the car route with licensing, liability insurance, etc… or maybe you do?
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The right to vote is far more dangerous then the 2A. All for it but let's be real. And either you have full rights or you don't. It's stupid the way we do things on this.
 
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#229
#229
OHvol40 said:
Boycott propaganda “news”, help it to die. Discourage conspiracy theories. Require written and practical testing to own and operate a firearm. Provide and encourage mental health care without stigma. Require parent’s permission for kids age 18-21 to purchase firearms, especially handguns and semi-autos. Make a concerted effort to enforce the gun laws already on the books. Both require and teach about safe storage in homes with children. Ensure the National Instant Criminal Background Check System is constantly updated, correct, and effective. Increase penalties for stealing guns, or possessing a stolen gun. Crack down on straw buyers. Thorough background checks.

“Red Flag” laws I’m lukewarm on. I can see cases both for and against them. Magazine capacity regulations I lean towards no on those, although they may be the most practically effective of any moderate proposal… I’m just afraid it’s too much infringement on responsible gun owners.

Now, let’s hear yours.
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I agree with most of the above, with the exception of the 18-21 legislation. You can't require parental consent for a person who is no longer a minor.

Now, if we want to discuss raising the voting, military enlistment, and consent age to 21, that's a different argument.
 
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#230
#230
Thunder Good-Oil said:
It was federal. Roe v Wade. It took 50 years to fix that flawed legislation.

You say nonsense. So are you suggesting that state and federal laws didn’t permit partial birth abortions?
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I'm asking you to show the legislation where they did.
Can you?
 
#232
#232
OHvol40 said:
Boycott propaganda “news”, help it to die. Discourage conspiracy theories. Require written and practical testing to own and operate a firearm. Provide and encourage mental health care without stigma. Require parent’s permission for kids age 18-21 to purchase firearms, especially handguns and semi-autos. Make a concerted effort to enforce the gun laws already on the books. Both require and teach about safe storage in homes with children. Ensure the National Instant Criminal Background Check System is constantly updated, correct, and effective. Increase penalties for stealing guns, or possessing a stolen gun. Crack down on straw buyers. Thorough background checks.

“Red Flag” laws I’m lukewarm on. I can see cases both for and against them. Magazine capacity regulations I lean towards no on those, although they may be the most practically effective of any moderate proposal… I’m just afraid it’s too much infringement on responsible gun owners.

Now, let’s hear yours.
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Actually, other than the parental permission thing, I think it's a good start.

What would you think about issuing a universal background check card? One of my thoughts is you would present your card to a sales associate who would run it. You simply are good or you aren't. This doesn't indicate that you intend to buy but simply that you are eligible. If you checkout, then you are able to buy what you want with no further paperwork. Your purchase isn't recorded anywhere but a sales receipt. Your ID card number is not associated with a sale. Serves the same purpose as a background check. This used to be the way a carry permit worked in some states. The hinge here is how you tie good standing to the ID card effectively. Could require something similar to carry permit classes. The key is, you get a card and never ghave to buy a firearm. You can buy a firearm and your identity isn't associated with a sale.
 
#233
#233
82_VOL_83 said:
Actually, other than the parental permission thing, I think it's a good start.

What would you think about issuing a universal background check card? One of my thoughts is you would present your card to a sales associate who would run it. You simply are good or you aren't. This doesn't indicate that you intend to buy but simply that you are eligible. If you checkout, then you are able to buy what you want with no further paperwork. Your purchase isn't recorded anywhere but a sales receipt. Your ID card number is not associated with a sale. Serves the same purpose as a background check. This used to be the way a carry permit worked in some states. The hinge here is how you tie good standing to the ID card effectively. Could require something similar to carry permit classes. The key is, you get a card and never ghave to buy a firearm. You can buy a firearm and your identity isn't associated with a sale.
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I’m not opposed to the idea of a gun purchase ID card. If we could tie evidence that the person being issued the ID has demonstrated responsible gun ownership acumen (courses, written test, practical test) then I think it’s a good idea. Maybe there could be an update requirement, like with my medical licenses I have to periodically show proficiency and remain updated on new information, continuing education credits to maintain it… something like that. Purchases could remain anonymous and we could still have at least some form of stopgap to prevent free-for-all purchasing by potential irresponsible parties. Of course, updated background information with an effective database connected to the card would be required, so that system would need improvement as it misses background information during sales all the time. I’m for that idea.
 
#235
#235
OHvol40 said:
This idea I have bolded is an example of what I’m trying to point out is wrong. There is hardly ever black and white on any issue. The dichotomous line of thinking has to stop. I’ll use myself and my own perspective as an example to clarify.

I grew up in Mountain City TN. I was always around guns, they have always been a part of my life. I feel comfortable around them, I’m an avid hunter and I enjoy sport shooting, I also have some solely for personal protection. I own dozens. I do not expect to give them up, and would fight to keep them. I am extremely in tune with what the second amendment is, why it was written, and what it means to us 250 years later. I like the 2nd amendment.

As an adult, I have realized that many of my views, especially on social issues, lean liberal, but that is not in absolution. I have children, I work in healthcare, I’ve dealt with gun trauma victims and their families, I have empathy for these victims of gun violence. I also recognize there are cultural and mental health factors at play here. It is impossible for me to not consider these things when I think about gun laws, and clearly America has a problem to solve.

Personally I’m torn on this issue. I know that our rights are there for a reason, they have been made nearly impossible to amend in this country for a reason. On the other hand, the status quo is unacceptable to me. The amount of gun violence is unacceptable and the ease with which any Tom, Dick, or Harry can head down to the local store and buy semi-autos with huge magazines with mass murder on their mind is unacceptable to me. I was always taught that gun ownership is a deadly serious responsibility, and when others don’t treat it the same way it’s unacceptable to me.

Now, I know this perspective is unique to me, and I own it… but I’m willing to bet there are many others who can relate. There are also those who won’t relate as well leaning more one way or the other. Regardless, this conversation needs to be had. I’m all ears on solutions, but standing back and watching school shootings every couple weeks or months is unacceptable to me, and I can’t believe that it would be acceptable to any of you fine folks.

So please, can we stop the “2A vs anti-2A” charade and actually hear each other out?
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Like i said. Give me a concrete place to start and I will hear you out. Because as it is the range for anti2A, just a generic term, goes anywhere from delays in purchases, to outright bans. And we have already slipped down the slope, so it's not a fallacy for the 2A to believe you will want more.

Just to start, give me the number, rate, severity, location, that is your target for acceptability. Is this a zero sum game? Is it suicides we care about, crime we care about, or only mass shootings? Which somehow never gets stuck in the crime category.

Is it just a safety factor for the average citizen? Hypothetically if the data showed that guns in the hands of citizens made people safer in general, would the Anti2A argument stop? And safety goes beyond getting shot. Are we helping to de-gun if other violent crime rises?

It's such a broad topic, we need specifics to get going. The pro2A group has the 2A, you need to show us the, how, why, and what, we need to change to really discuss. And then you also need to accept getting pinned down into accepting the facts and not just play off of mass hysteria.
 
#237
#237
whodeycin85 said:
An armed population saves lives.


According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, almost every major study on defensive gun use has found that Americans use their firearms defensively between 500,000 and 3 million times each year.

Data Visualization | Defensive Gun Uses in the U.S. | The Heritage Foundation
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They dont care about the lives or the safety. They care about the guns. They would trade 5001 deaths by non-gun violent means for 5000 gun deaths, and call it "better".
 
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#238
#238
OHvol40 said:
Teenagers aren’t using a vote or enlistment to massacre people… and I don’t think you want to go the car route with licensing, liability insurance, registration, etc… or maybe you do?
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I was right originally. You have nothing to offer to the discussion other than ban and more restrictions. That is why the door must be closed to any compromise with you people. You bring nothing of value or new ideas to the conversation.
 
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#239
#239
82_VOL_83 said:
Actually, other than the parental permission thing, I think it's a good start.

What would you think about issuing a universal background check card? One of my thoughts is you would present your card to a sales associate who would run it. You simply are good or you aren't. This doesn't indicate that you intend to buy but simply that you are eligible. If you checkout, then you are able to buy what you want with no further paperwork. Your purchase isn't recorded anywhere but a sales receipt. Your ID card number is not associated with a sale. Serves the same purpose as a background check. This used to be the way a carry permit worked in some states. The hinge here is how you tie good standing to the ID card effectively. Could require something similar to carry permit classes. The key is, you get a card and never ghave to buy a firearm. You can buy a firearm and your identity isn't associated with a sale.
Click to expand...

No, no, no! That is still getting permission from the government to exercise your right. While I don’t like the current BGC system it is something I can live with but once you make something universal politicians like Ohvol will pass laws to make that universal BGC card a universal license to own a gun. Next it will be registration of all the firearms you own in order to keep that license.

There is no reason to compromise with these people. This is a people problem yet they will fight tooth and nail to ignore that.
 
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#240
#240
kiddiedoc said:
I agree with most of the above, with the exception of the 18-21 legislation. You can't require parental consent for a person who is no longer a minor.

Now, if we want to discuss raising the voting, military enlistment, and consent age to 21, that's a different argument.
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Will we no longer be treating criminals under 21 as an adult?
 
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#241
#241
hog88 said:
No, no, no! That is still getting permission from the government to exercise your right. While I don’t like the current BGC system it is something I can live with but once you make something universal politicians like Ohvol will pass laws to make that universal BGC card a universal license to own a gun. Next it will be registration of all the firearms you own in order to keep that license.

There is no reason to compromise with these people. This is a people problem yet they will fight tooth and nail to ignore that.
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No middle ground
 
#243
#243
hog88 said:
I was right originally. You have nothing to offer to the discussion other than ban and more restrictions. That is why the door must be closed to any compromise with you people. You bring nothing of value or new ideas to the conversation.
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Lol, your “ideas”, frankly, suck. They aren’t even solutions, they’re wishful thinking. I already told you why… but you know they suck. Its the best you can do to deflect from actually addressing issues you don’t want to face. Remember how I talked about obstructionism and absolutism, that’s you bud.
 
#244
#244
OHvol40 said:
Lol, your “ideas”, frankly, suck. They aren’t even solutions, they’re wishful thinking. I already told you why… but you know they suck. Its the best you can do to deflect from actually addressing issues you don’t want to face. Remember how I talked about obstructionism and absolutism, that’s you bud.
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My ideas don’t suck and yes they are part of the solution. If we don’t start instilling discipline in our kids and quit drugging them it’s only going to get worse no matter what you people ban next. It’s you and your ilk that doesn’t want to face the reality that your all in on acceptance of anything abnormal, mental illness is a badge of honor and children must be raised with a sense of entitlement has been a failure and is truly the cause of most of these incidents. (The Government is the other culprit)

It is a people problem and no other restrictions or bans will fix it.
 
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#245
#245
OHvol40 said:
Teenagers aren’t using a vote or enlistment to massacre people… and I don’t think you want to go the car route with licensing, liability insurance, registration, etc… or maybe you do?
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Oh yes they are. They are voting in the people who do, or order, the massacres. They dont lose responsibility just because they voted for it. That's why I say the biggest critics of a politician should be those who voted for them. The voter is responsible for who they vote for.

Just like owning a gun is a responsibility as well as a right. If you cant do it responsibly you should face the punishment. Just because it's a right doesnt wash away your guilt.
 
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