Are the hurricanes dead ?

#76
#76
rockytop9808 said:
Then you're sending the message that a program can get away with basically whatever the hell they want. You have to punish someone, and in this case, it warrants severity. Death penalty? Doubt it, but Miami should be reduced to a team comprised mostly of walkons at the very least, with a bowl ban for at minimum 4 years.
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So you agree with what I said. If you take away scholarships then all you have is walk ons. And out of the bowls for a couple of years or so (2,3,4) then we agree. No matter what the severity, these things are gonna continue to happen or else we wouldn't hear about it every year. It's not the teams that have a problem, it's the boosters getting to the kids and the management that allows it. The canes incident sounds terrible with 72 players, but it's over a 10 year span. That's about 7 players per year and every time we hear of these investigations it involves about this number. What makes me wonder is what we don't hear about?
 
#78
#78
I find it interesting how recent transfers from Miami that had allegations can get cleared in a very timely manner but all the current players with allegations are still in limbo.
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#79
#79
Source: Willful violators clause could apply at Miami - Investigations - Yahoo! Sports

NCAA president Mark Emmert said that despite the penalty being used only once before in college football – against Southern Methodist University in 1987 – the association isn’t shying away from such a drastic sanction.

“We need to make sure that we’ve got, for the committee on infractions, all the tools they need to create those kinds of deterrents,” Emmert told USA Today. “If that includes the death penalty, I’m fine with that.”



SIAP
 
#81
#81
TnScooby said:
“Here’s the thing: Luther Campbell was the first uncle who took care of players before I got going,” Shapiro said, referring to the entertainer notorious for supplying cash to Miami players in the 1980s and 1990s. “His role was diminished by the NCAA and the school, and someone needed to pick up that mantle. That someone was me. He was ‘Uncle Luke,’ and I became ‘Little Luke.’

apples/apples :yes:
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I'm sorry, but this is a terrible post.

The apples/oranges comment was referring to SMU and Miami. Willfull decision to cheat while on probation for willfully cheating vs. inept administration not knowing that a felon was paying players. Both bad, but apples and oranges when it comes to this investigation. Willful misconduct vs. negligence.

If you want to bring up Luther, go ahead, but don't act like it has anything to do with my post.
 
#82
#82
I doubt the NCAA will bring the death penalty, but my guess is it will be somewhere in the same zip code as the death penalty. Miami will go down hard. And they won't recover quickly. 72 players, 7 coaches?
 
#83
#83
bop_rocco said:
I find it interesting how recent transfers from Miami that had allegations can get cleared in a very timely manner but all the current players with allegations are still in limbo.
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The transfer players need the eligibility determined immediately, or there isn't any fair remedy for them . If they are in limbo, the program they are at now couldn't play them because they risk playing an ineligible player based on things that happened at another program they had no control over. This clears the player's new home from wrongdoing if they play them and it turns out the players were involved. When and if the NCAA then rules the player ineligible, the player's current program doesn't suffer for things they had nothing to do with.

If the team was forced to sit the player because they were in limbo for something that happened at another program, the player would be losing eligibility, scholarship oppurtunities and productive years of NFL prep time for something they potentially weren't involved in. In comparison, players who had not transferred from Miami and were involved in the pay for play would play out their time at Miami while the investigation took place at no real personal penalty.

You have to clear the transfers almost immediately based on the best information available or they end up being punished even if innocent, while the guilty kept playing.
 
#84
#84
MemphisCanes said:
I'm sorry, but this is a terrible post.

The apples/oranges comment was referring to SMU and Miami. Willfull decision to cheat while on probation for willfully cheating vs. inept administration not knowing that a felon was paying players. Both bad, but apples and oranges when it comes to this investigation. Willful misconduct vs. negligence.

If you want to bring up Luther, go ahead, but don't act like it has anything to do with my post.
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Theorem I:

Coaches = administrators.

Coaches knew.

Ergo administrators knew.

Ergo lack of institutional control



Theorem II:

Coaches knew.

Administrators not keeping tabs on what the F is going on all over the place, despite many clues that it was bad doo-doo.

Ergo lack of institutional control.
 
#85
#85
lawgator1 said:
Theorem I:

Coaches = administrators.

Coaches knew.

Ergo administrators knew.

Ergo lack of institutional control

Coaches =/= administrators. The administration can distance itself from a coach. See: Pearl, Bruce; Tressel, James. The University cannot distance itself from it's own administration.

Theorem II:

Coaches knew.

Administrators not keeping tabs on what the F is going on all over the place, despite many clues that it was bad doo-doo.

Ergo lack of institutional control.

The NCAA will focus on this. Miami will show that they had safeguards in place to attempt to prevent this happening, but they failed. I assume USC did the same, and they still got hammered. Time will tell what the NCAA's investigation unearths.
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.
 
#86
#86
Memphis, I guess if I were in your shoes I'd be trying to rationalize some way out, too.

Just not gonna happen. This is the worst case in 30+ years. Maybe ever. The NCAA will have no choice but to either kill the program or cripple it so badly that it is basically the same thing.

It will be at least a decade for Miami football to even be recognizable again. Maybe not even then.
 
#87
#87
lawgator1 said:
Memphis, I guess if I were in your shoes I'd be trying to rationalize some way out, too.

Just not gonna happen. This is the worst case in 30+ years. Maybe ever. The NCAA will have no choice but to either kill the program or cripple it so badly that it is basically the same thing.

It will be at least a decade for Miami football to even be recognizable again. Maybe not even then.
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I'll wait to see what facts are unearthed by the NCAA. You may very well be right.
 
#88
#88
MemphisCanes said:
I'll wait to see what facts are unearthed by the NCAA. You may very well be right.
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Yes, as discussed the assumption is that the bulk of the allegations are true. Obviously, the actual facts could be different.

Let me ask you, do you think Miami is better off fighting each charge like crazy, litigate it, stonewall it, interfere as much as possible in hopes that it ends up much smaller and thereby gets dumbed down? Or better off admitting to most if not all of it and trying to earn mercy with reform and assurances of correction?

The problem with the former is that if you aren't successful then in the penalty phase you've killed off any chance at redemption. The latter, you basically put your fate in their hands and they might view it as too little, too late.
 
#89
#89
lawgator1 said:
Yes, as discussed the assumption is that the bulk of the allegations are true. Obviously, the actual facts could be different.

Let me ask you, do you think Miami is better off fighting each charge like crazy, litigate it, stonewall it, interfere as much as possible in hopes that it ends up much smaller and thereby gets dumbed down? Or better off admitting to most if not all of it and trying to earn mercy with reform and assurances of correction?

The problem with the former is that if you aren't successful then in the penalty phase you've killed off any chance at redemption. The latter, you basically put your fate in their hands and they might view it as too little, too late.
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For the sake of their program, I hope they DO NOT FIGHT IT.

In 1974, after Charlie Baggetts Michigan State team beat #1 ranked O$U, Woody Hayes was so ticked off that he went on a rampage and hired private investigators to go after MSU and find something wrong with the program. How could lowly MSU beat his mighty buckeyes? Him and bo schembechler tagteamed the process and the NCAA came up with a few minor transgressions. An assistant bought a player a suit for his grandmothers funeral, (something of that sort) and there was some illegal contact, things that are minor in todays grand scheme. MSU decided to fight the charges and instead of a year probation, slap on the wrist type of punishment, they got smacked with 4 years no TV, No Bowls. It killed the program. It was a step short of the death penalty. They were only a decade away from their last national championship, and they have only seen one Rose Bowl since.

I dont have the time to find all of the links for that info, but you can search it all. (or you can go ask Coach Baggett) Fighting tNCAA is a badddddddddddd idea.
 
#90
#90
house divided said:
So you agree with what I said. If you take away scholarships then all you have is walk ons. And out of the bowls for a couple of years or so (2,3,4) then we agree. No matter what the severity, these things are gonna continue to happen or else we wouldn't hear about it every year. It's not the teams that have a problem, it's the boosters getting to the kids and the management that allows it. The canes incident sounds terrible with 72 players and coaches, but it's over a 10 year span. That's about 7 players per year and every time we hear of these investigations it involves about this number. What makes me wonder is what we don't hear about?
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Fixed that.

You're not taking into account how much money was involved and the type of benefits received. Ohio State's guys were selling stuff for tattoos. AJ Green sold a jersey for a grand (I believe). Miami's players were receiving $500 meals, being given $5,000 in bounties, and taking lump sums of cash from the booster, including a reported $50,000 for Vince Wilfork. These kind of ridiculous amounts were being thrown around for 10 years- it's not like the guy was giving them McDonald's money. He was hooking them up with hookers and nightclub VIP spots, rims, rings, and yacht trips.

We actually don't agree at all. Anything less than 4 years of postseason ban is a slap on the wrist. Anything less than a 50-75% loss of scholarships is a slap on the wrist.

Miami won't lose the season, though they probably deserve to. They should come as close as possible- losing all scholarships, receiving a 5 year postseason ban, and receiving at least 8 years of probation. All players on the team should receive the opportunity to leave the school without penalty. This way, no ACC schools lose games (unless Miami decides to shutter the program) and the TV deal most likely remains intact.
 
#91
#91
lawgator1 said:
Yes, as discussed the assumption is that the bulk of the allegations are true. Obviously, the actual facts could be different.

Let me ask you, do you think Miami is better off fighting each charge like crazy, litigate it, stonewall it, interfere as much as possible in hopes that it ends up much smaller and thereby gets dumbed down? Or better off admitting to most if not all of it and trying to earn mercy with reform and assurances of correction?

The problem with the former is that if you aren't successful then in the penalty phase you've killed off any chance at redemption. The latter, you basically put your fate in their hands and they might view it as too little, too late.
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Nope. The way to go about this is to fully cooperate with the NCAA, and hope a lot of the allegations cannot be substantiated through their investigation. I wouldn't accept Shapiro's allegations at face value, nor would I stipulate that vague credit card receipts or phone calls are evidence of violations. But when the evidence is there, it's best to admit it and take responsibility. You try to fight or hide things, but it does more damage than good in an NCAA investigation.

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that Universities cannot fight the NCAA. The NCAA operates by their own rules; they have no precedent; they make up their own standards. Once they're on the trail of a school, that school's ONLY choice is to cooperate and be completely translucent.

Memphis tried to fight and argue with the NCAA over the Derrick Rose thing, so the NCAA instituted the first ever case of a "strict liability" standard. Hard to argue the law when the other side can retool it whenever they want to fit their ends.

Miami just has to sack up and hope that Shapiro is lying about some of this stuff.
 
#92
#92
lawgator1 said:
Memphis, I guess if I were in your shoes I'd be trying to rationalize some way out, too.

Just not gonna happen. This is the worst case in 30+ years. Maybe ever. The NCAA will have no choice but to either kill the program or cripple it so badly that it is basically the same thing.

It will be at least a decade for Miami football to even be recognizable again. Maybe not even then.
Click to expand...

Hate to agree with a gator fan but you might be right
 
#95
#95
MemphisCanes said:
I'm sorry, but this is a terrible post.

The apples/oranges comment was referring to SMU and Miami. Willfull decision to cheat while on probation for willfully cheating vs. inept administration not knowing that a felon was paying players. Both bad, but apples and oranges when it comes to this investigation. Willful misconduct vs. negligence.

If you want to bring up Luther, go ahead, but don't act like it has anything to do with my post.
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Apologies if I misunderstood your comparison..It wasn't clear which you were comparing..
 
#97
#97
I'm pretty sure the death penalty is only used when a team makes another serious violation while on probation. I don't see miami losing football for a whole year, they will get worse then usc but not as bad as smu.
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#98
#98
mkh423 said:
I'm pretty sure the death penalty is only used when a team makes another serious violation while on probation. I don't see miami losing football for a whole year, they will get worse then usc but not as bad as smu.
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They are on probation for baseball- the probation does not have to be in the same sport.
 
#99
#99
probably been said in this thread or another but these crooked booster's need to be held accountable as well as the programs.
 
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